LJ thought the upcoming Potterdammerung wasn't enough

[norwich36]

So they decided to amp things up a bit. This post [caution: I've been warned there are HP spoilers in the comments on the ljbiz post, so you may want to avoid reading them] makes me really, really glad I didn't buy a permanent account. The relevant bit for fans is this:

To reiterate, though, we take a zero-tolerance stance on these sorts of material:

1. Material which violates United States law

Our servers are located in the United States, and so that means that LiveJournal is subject to United States law. This particular item in our policy covers content that inherently violates specific United States criminal statutes ....This includes...child pornography (photos or videos), or other material -- including drawings and text -- that explicitly depicts minors under the age of 18 (real or not) in a graphic sexual context. Or, in other words: Romeo and Juliet is okay. Teens talking about their experiences with sex is okay. Smut focused on a twelve year old is not okay.

And while the person speaking for LJ keeps talking about 12-year-olds, the policy explicitly says text depicting graphic sex with persons under 18 violates the TOS. Which to me sounds like all explicit fic featuring season 1-4 Clex, for example. So I hope everyone took the advice of people in the last round of the strikethrough and backed up your fic. Here's a link with advice for how to back up your livejournal, if you haven't done so.

Does this mean the fannish migration will be happening after all? (I am sure it means lots of HP folks will be migrating, at the very least, and lots and lots of fic will be locked up very tightly from now on.)

Comments

[sadface.livejournal.com]

There are spoilers for the HP book in the comments to that post so you might want to avoid it or warn people or something.

(also, hi!)

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

Hi! Thanks for the warning. I was avoiding the comments mostly because I have the depressing feeling that nothing we say is going to change their minds, but I'm glad you mentioned this because other folks might get accidentally spoiled.

I have been unbelievably obsessed with HP since I saw the film last week--I've done virtually nothing for the past week except read HP fic to distract myself from thinking about who's probably going to die in the book. It will be a big relief when I finally read it, honestly.

How are you doing these days, anyway?

[sadface.livejournal.com]

NORA, NORA. THIS TIME TOMORROW I WILL BE TEN MINUTES AWAY FROM HAVING THE BOOK.

I've been doing good but also doing nothing, at all, for weeks.

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

That's SO EXCITING!!! (I'm slightly jealous of the time difference, I have to say).

Hmm. Does that mean the Australians already have the book (or will tonight?)

[sadface.livejournal.com]

n, it's not allowed to be sold until midnight GMT. I'm so excited! My friend is coming around and we are reading it together all night.

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I suspect I'm going to be up all night reading it too. Only about 32 more hours to go!!!!

*Bounces with excitement*

[fodian.livejournal.com]

Unbelievable.

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I hate to be a cynic, but the timing--when the fandom most likely to go apeshit about this is seriously distracted and many are avoiding LJ altogether--seems a little suspicious to me.

[fodian.livejournal.com]

It is *incredibly* suspicious. I don't believe for a minute that this is just happenstance. I think Pornish Pixies is really what got them all that attention the last time -- it's HUGE, after all -- and they very carefully engineered their statement to hit at this particular time.

GOD.

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I mean, considering they deliberately timed the last announcement to fall on Memorial Day (where presumably their U.S. members would be distracted), and, like you say, the inclusion of pornish pixies is probably what drove the response from fandom to be so huge, I can't help but feel this was a deliberately chosen date to release this info. (The fact that it fell after the permanent account sale--and after Barak pretty much assured everyone that sexually explicit fanfic with minors was ok--just really makes me not trust them at all anymore.)

[bittermint.livejournal.com]

Good thing all my early Smallville fic's been archived elsewhere for awhile now.

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

Yeah--it's good not to be an obvious target. It sucks for fandom as a whole, though, because, for example, I've been reading through a lot of HP reclists since I've been in a very HP mood lately, but a very high percentage of those recs lead to flocked journals or dead links because people are so paranoid these days. Sigh.

[bittermint.livejournal.com]

I do feel sorry for all the HP fans right now. It would seem from the way the new TOS is worded that they're being targeted. They're going to be in for a nasty surprise when they all come back from their spoiler-induced LJ hiatus.

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

Yes, though I wouldn't be surprised if the word doesn't get around to a lot of folks on LJ hiatus. Really, if I were seriously involved in HP fandom (rather than just reading around the fringes) I'd be emailing all my friends right now to be sure they knew, just in case this announcement is the preface to another big purge.

[cinderella81.livejournal.com]

Anything that is 100% fictional is 100% legal ... so says the Supreme Court

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

And yet LJ can't seem to understand that. I know they're a private company and can do whatever they want, but it's extremely annoying, nevertheless. I am not giving them another penny, that's for sure.

[cinderella81.livejournal.com]

If is fairly annoying ... but if people stop giving them money ... I'm hoping against hope that they'll remember the 100% fictional/100% Legal thing ...

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Eeep. That doesn't sound good at all, especially when people in the comments are asking for them to please edit in that it doesn't affect fic, in order to put the users minds at rest, and they are quite pointedly not doing that :/

Half of the Clex fic I read back in the early days of fandom (it could be so dirty in those days!), would presumedly no longer be acceptable for LJ any more, unless Clark's age was changed.

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

I know. And there are whole communities devoted to season 1-2 Clex, so presumably they would be at risk of being TOSed. Kind of scary. Smallville fandom wouldn't be an obvious target, unlike HP, BUT all it would take is one pissed-off fan to report someone or some community, and then we could get a wholescale purge. It's very worrisome.

[myownghost.livejournal.com]

my main journal is long since permanent, but this one won't ever be. in fact, i just now published the entire contents of this lj (w/o comments, which make it too long an MS) at Lulu and will, at some point, probably just delete this screen name.

it's not that i'm at all interested in chan, but it feels like the tide's against us. clark's a great big boy at a putative 15-16, but still that flouts the new TOS. it's a shame, really, the way they're confusing fiction with reality. it's like the national mood is more paranoid than it used to be.

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

I'm sure they're just covering their asses--and they are being more savvy about it this time around, banning only porn and not, for example, teenage discussion groups--probably correctly assuming that this will play better in the press if they end up getting more press like they did before.

It's funny, because if you asked me outright I'd say I wasn't into chan, but actually so many of the fandoms I read in are set in high school for at least part of the time(Smallville, Buffy, Harry Potter) that I am, in fact, spending a lot of time reading about minors in sexual situations, even though I personally wouldn't categorize a lot of it as chan.

[myownghost.livejournal.com]

you're no doubt right about the CYA factor. i sure don't like six apart as much i used to the old amateur-hour LJ. (i have a soft spot for brad fitz.)

like you, i've read lots of stories about minors. in the reading of fandom writing, there's so much suspension of not only disbelief (how accustomed am i to reading about spells and hexes or about x-ray vision and flying?), but also of the kind of knee-jerk moralism that would ordinarily make me jumpy about snape and harry or lex and young clark? well, we shall see what comes down next.

[myownghost.livejournal.com]

there's a stray question mark in that second paragraph. sometimes i can't proof-read my own writing worth squat. *g*

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm always doing that. I think I left out an entire word on a comment yesterday, but decided it wasn't worth fixing since someone had already replied to it.

[ladydreamer.livejournal.com]

So smut focused on a fourteen year old is okay? Aka Romeo and Juliet? I don't know why they think being glib rather than being explicit is even remotely good enough at this point.

Now I feel like less of an idiot for backing up all my fic at IJ. I'm certain I have nothing graphic (sexually. violence, maybe) with underaged SV characters, but who knows what the muse will come up with, and I'm disappointed that other fans won't be given the freedom to write what THEIR muse dicates!

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

Well, I didn't read comments past the first page because of the potential HP spoilers, but the OP is using the Miller test. So: explicit smut with underage characters that has redeeming literary or social value (i.e. Shakespeare) is ok. Smut with anyone under age 18 written mainly to appeal to the prurient interest is not. The problem is, of course, who is setting the standards for literary. My guess is that the average Clex PWP wouldn't pass the test.

And yeah, since I don't even write fic I'd be perfectly safe on lj, but this is going to be really harmful to a lot of fandoms--any with teen characters, basically.

[ladydreamer.livejournal.com]

Depending on the 'standards of the community?' God, I don't WANT to read past the first page. What a MESS.

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

ICON LOVE!!!!

[kristiinthedark.livejournal.com]

I am pleased with myself for already having a backup journal, but I'm thinking I need to wander over to IJ and set up camp.

Otoh, I'm determined to stay here, and fuck them all. :D

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

Yeah. I don't think I'm leaving except in the unlikely event I get TOsed (I can't think what they would do that for, since I don't write fic at all), BUT I expect a lot of fans will migrate, so I'll have to start reading IJ or GJ or both on a more regular basis.

I'm norwich36 on IJ and GJ.

[kristiinthedark.livejournal.com]

Friended now in both places!

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

And I just friended you back on IJ. (Wow, my f-list on IJ has jumped a lot in the past month! Last time I checked I only had about 10 friends over there).

[obursts.livejournal.com]

The fact that this is coming after the permanent account sale is just grand. I'd like to think that they learned from the previous drama and were able to anticipate what the response to today's "clarification" would be. So hopefully they'll be quicker to respond to everyone's concerns. We shall see though, as it's 10 pages of comments and the macros are already being posted.

On another note, I keep forgetting that early-Clex is underage. That's what happens when a 24 year old plays a 15 year old.

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

I don't actually know that they're going to back down this time. They made some tactical errors last time--e.g. banning the Lolita discussion group and a few survivor journals--but it sounds like they're going to cleave to the Miller decision. So underage sex is ok if it has significant literary, political or social value, but otherwise not.

And yeah, I find it very telling that they didn't postpone the permanent account sale until AFTER they made these changes to the TOS.

I'm sure the underage Clex would have been a lot more controversial if Clark had been played by an actual 15 year old.

[serenography.livejournal.com]

*sigh*
I'm still trying to master LJ, switching to a different journal thingy now probably isn't going to happen. As much as I'd like to join the solidarity against fanficscrimination... I think I'm just going to hang tight a while and hope LJ pulls its collective head out of its collective ass on this one. Hopefully, they're just putting up a big show for the watchdog groups, but once the dust settles, they'll knock off all the huffing and puffing. Hopefully.

I read the HP spoilers. I have zippo willpower. Still.. I'm dying to read the book.

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

Well, I doubt much of SV fandom will be moving, so I think you'll be ok.

Are you reading the book this weekend?

[garryowen.livejournal.com]

Sigh. This whole business makes me sad. I've been at insanejournal a while. It's kinda quiet over there...

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

Me too. And yeah, I've noticed that only about one person on my IJ flist ever posts anything.

[random-serious.livejournal.com]

Does this mean the fannish migration will be happening after all?

I don't know. I don't even want to think about it. I want my community.

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

I honestly think fandom as a whole is unlikely to migrate unless there are significant crackdowns. It's more likely that some of the more targeted fandoms (like HP) will lose some folks to IJ or GJ.

[herohunter.livejournal.com]

Why do the ALWAYS do that shit when people are just starting to calm down again?

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

Because they are idiots? Because they really don't give a damn about fandom, as it isn't their target demographic? *Kicks Six Apart*

[ender24]

they annoy me to no END, grrrrrrrrrrrr, i mean, i have no clue where their revenue comes from, or how much is really generated by fandom base, but damn, there are heaps of us, who are throwing money at them for more icons, themes, layout, and whatever stuff they are offering...ok, yes, i understand they have to cover their asses legalwise, but then, i am asking myself, there are sites out there on the web, that are contentwise, about just 1000 times worse that the worst bad chan underage whatever fic with have on LJ, and why does never happens to those sites?!?! are those sites all having their servers in some weird african state i have never heard of ?!?!(and yes, i know how worse, coz i have read some of those Original fics by some male authors there makes some HP non-con bestiality lucius&friends gang raping draco fics looks like kindergarden)

[norwich36.livejournal.com]

I remember you saying you unsubbed from metafandom, but in the metafandom issue that dealt with this, there were actually comments from the OP saying that even most underage PWPs wouldn't violate the new TOS, that it's really aimed at actual pedophilia.

//that it's really aimed at actual pedophilia//

[ender24]

well, at this stage, where everybody is outraged and upset and has worked themselves fully up, i am afraid, no matter what they say, only a small percentage will listen *g*

not that it really matters, i firmly believe, we wont move away from LJ at least the next two years, unless they really are going to shut us all down.
Moving away from LJ wont be the same as moving away from yahoo, its a whole new level and scale of interaction, so most fen wont do that until really being forced. its human nature, we are talking about, after all.

and after all, its their company, they could change their TOS to whatever, and whenever they want. Which, from a corporate drone POV, i totally support *g*