norwich36 | SV: Oracle

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SV: Oracle

Well, that rocked.

I am torn on the interpretation of Lionel, now. Are we to assume that he is only possessed when his eyes are glazed over, or was that just to make it clear to people who were a little slow to realize he was possessed by Jor-El? My guess is that we're supposed to think that he's only possessed when his eyes are glazed over, which makes me completely reassess certain aspects of "Mercy."

Are they really, really redeeming Lionel? Oh, please tell me that this is just some deeper game Lionel is playing, where he tells Martha the truth in a manner similar to Lex telling Lana the truth about the Fine experiments: as part of a broader plan to get her to trust him and be more enmeshed in his plans. Because this "everyone is suddenly trusting Lionel" thing is deeply disturbing. Even though I am in favor of Mionel, I am very glad that Martha doesn't just buy his apology at the end of the episode. (And I'm glad they finally explained why she trusted him--at least she *believed* he was trying to redeem himself, which, if naive, at least explains some of her behavior toward him.)

I suppose another explanation could be that Jor-El is influencing him on a subconscious level, even though he is not consciously aware of what is going on. But as much as I love Lionel, if he ends up being redeemed after everything he has done....I will be very angry.

I did really love Martha in this episode. I loved her attempt to talk some sense into Clark, after his conversation with "Jonathan," and her own scene with "Jonathan" was amazing. AOT just rocked the house in that scene, and also her final scene with Lionel.

I also loved Lex to death in this episode. Yay for a motive that makes sense and is heroic in its own way: trying to save the world from a disease unleashed by invading aliens. I also loved that he *told* Clark "I was the good guy here." He was, even if he was played--and he knew he was being played, so he was trying to play Fine. (He's invulnerable now, or infected with Brainiac? Or both? What do people think? The previews for next week look awesome, btw).

The Lexana stuff was wonderful. I really love how he's maneuvering Lana deeper and deeper into his web, but telling her about it every step of the way. He really knows how to play her, and yet she's clearly one of the people under his protection now, as his conversation with Clark at the end revealed. Tonight, I could really *see* the iconic Lex Luthor in every scene he was in, and I couldn't be happier.

No other intelligent commentary, just a bunch of lines I liked:

"To save this world, you're got to kill Lionel Luthor."

"Hand me a cloak and call me Horatio."

"I need a night life."

"I can't exactly look for a file called my evil secret."

"Help yourself--everybody else does."

"That's Clark's specialty--barging in where he's not invited and making you feel like it's your fault."

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Oh, please tell me that this is just some deeper game Lionel is playing, where he tells Martha the truth in a manner similar to Lex telling Lana the truth about the Fine experiments: as part of a broader plan to get her to trust him and be more enmeshed in his plans. Because this "everyone is suddenly trusting Lionel" thing is deeply disturbing. Even though I am in favor of Mionel, I am very glad that Martha doesn't just buy his apology at the end of the episode. (And I'm glad they finally explained why she trusted him--at least she *believed* he was trying to redeem himself, which, if naive, at least explains some of her behavior toward him.)

I suppose another explanation could be that Jor-El is influencing him on a subconscious level, even though he is not consciously aware of what is going on. But as much as I love Lionel, if he ends up being redeemed after everything he has done....I will be very angry.

Oh my. I was actually thinking during that Lionel scene-- and right now again as I am rewatching-- I can't wait until Norwich explains this all to me." I know you understand Lionel and I couldn't see why he was suddenly stumbling all over himself when he's usually so smooth. I was going to interupt out Lana debate to ask "So what IS that scene about?" Martha was bizaarre too. Was she moved? Restraining herself? Upset at Lionel.?

What's weird is, if I'm remembering Reckoning correctly, Lionel is *still* lying in that scene. But why is he coming clean with Martha? There was nothing charitable about Lionel's motivations; irrc didn't he want Jonathan as his political puppet? The "at least I was honest with you" is too deliberate a parallel with Lexana, but the implied redemption is what screws it up. I too will be pissed if they make Lionel Luthor a white hat after all he's done.

Oh my. I was actually thinking during that Lionel scene-- and right now again as I am rewatching-- I can't wait until Norwich explains this all to me." I know you understand Lionel and I couldn't see why he was suddenly stumbling all over himself when he's usually so smooth.

Well, that reminds me a lot of the final elevator scene in "Mercy," when he "shot himself" (though I still hold that he knew the gun was empty, hence my icon). He's *very* good at manipulating people emotionally, and as you say he's still lying about what actually happened in Mercy--or at the very least, shading the truth in a way that completely favors him. That actually gives me some hope that this is still some deep game he is playing.

As for Martha, I don't know. There's no reason *why* she should trust anything FineJonathan said, and yet I think emotionally she was hit very hard by the things he said, so I think she is feeling guilty about how much she's been trusting Lionel. I don't think she trusted his apology in that scene, but I'm not positive.

I was going to interupt out Lana debate to ask "So what IS that scene about?

I hope I wasn't being too obnoxious in that debate. I think I read your post right after reading a bunch of Lana bashing reviews in other quarters, and my "defend the underdog" gene kicked in.

...or at the very least, shading the truth in a way that completely favors him. That actually gives me some hope that this is still some deep game he is playing.

Yes..that’s my only glimmer of hope. I actually thought…when there was a beat after “I’m not as good-hearted as your son--” that he would finally reveal what he wanted. There was something odd about that moment, but it could just be me.

I just can’t buy redemption!Lionel who’s preaching morality to Lex after emotionally and physically abusing him for so long. I just can’t. It’s a lot harder than buying “Oh, Jor-El’s just misunderstood!” because everything about him and his backstory was so malicious and self serving. I don’t think another sociopath inhabiting him can erase that. ;)

I hope I wasn't being too obnoxious in that debate.

Omg don’t ever think that! I love being pushed to think harder and question what I was saying, and you definitely did that. It helped me get to the bottom of what was bothering me about it. You’re never patronizing or personal, s’all good. I know my tone comes off as serious online unless I’m making an obvious show of being silly and crazy, but I’ve given up trying to change it, because that’s how I am when talking too LOL. Don’t ever take my lack of humor as discouragement; I’m just not good at incorporating it in my replies ;) We could debate till kingdom come, 'tis not obnoxious to me in the least.

I think I read your post right after reading a bunch of Lana bashing reviews in other quarters, and my "defend the underdog" gene kicked in.

Heh, I know that feeling well; there are times when I defend her (after thinking about the Chloe/Lana confrontation, accusations that she's leeching off of Lex was living rent-free in that old apartment, accusations that she cheated on or shouldn't have broken up with whitney). But lately the WTFBBQ?! reaction has been coming up. :)

If Lex is infected with Brainiac, then the writers (actually with my approval for a change) lifted this from Justice League Unlimited (in one of the best episodes--and arcs--of an animated series EVER!)

And as far as Lionel is concerned, I don't trust anything that comes out of his mouth unless he's alone (much like I don't trust Lex, but I love Lex so he could be plotting the destruction of the world in my face and I'll love him).

P.S.
And no matter what, I love Clark. Hate the writers, love Clark. I love that he went to make sure Lex was alright, and he did it gently for a change. I love how his hurt with the Lexana situation seems to be centered around Lex and not Lana, just as I love that it was Lana that declared the moratorium and not Lex. *Sigh* Those boys need to get a clue.

I disagree with some of Clark's specific actions in this episode (like trusting a "ghost"), but I really think I've been more sympathetic to Clark this season than any season since the first.

I also think it would've been smarter to have Chloe go through Lana's stuff, but hey, maybe I'm the stupid one. But, I think the writers feel that Clark and Lana MUST do a scene together in every episode, otherwise they may spontaneously combust.

Quote
James Marshall: I never get tired of a Clark/Lana scene
Michael Rosenbaum: But they get tired of you.
(from "Rosetta" commentary)

That's a funny quote!

He really said it. I thought that was so funny.

I suppose another explanation could be that Jor-El is influencing him on a subconscious level, even though he is not consciously aware of what is going on. But as much as I love Lionel, if he ends up being redeemed after everything he has done....I will be very angry.

Well, I love to hate Lionel, as it were, but we're on the same page as far as *this* actually being a redemption arc. And I realized, this morning as I was driving in to work, that it bothers me *so much* because it's a redemption that has *nothing* to do with Lionel himself, and everything to do with Kryptonian machinations.

To break it down: Even if one believes, as some people do, that Lionel was not only transformed thanks to his soul possession of Clark's body in Transference but that he also never reverted back to his old self in Onyx (but was instead using that as a ruse to exert a different type of influence over Lex), that's still something Lionel hasn't *actively sought*. The only reason he and Clark traded bodies was because Lionel was inexcusably trying to trap *Lex's* soul inside Lionel's *dying and imprisoned body*. Lionel was attempting an unquestionably evil act and unexpectedly got a moral bonus in the bargain. But he didn't *want* redemption back then; he didn't seek it out. It was conferred on him through, apparently, the magical healing powers of Clark's physical form.

Alternatively, if S5!Lionel is being entirely or regularly controlled by Jor-El, or Jor-El has been subconsciously working on him even when he's not actively being used as Jor-El's avatar, again, none of the temperance or mercy of compassion we're seeing in Lionel, at least towards the Kents (and possibly Chloe), is coming from or about *Lionel qua Lionel*. It's not Lionel actively trying to be a better person because he *wants* to be; it's because someone else is influencing him, quite literally, in that direction.

We've talked about this before, but many of the things Lionel's done are well-nigh unforgivable, but certainly, if he's supposed to be racking up moral credits towards redemption, then surely those credits should be *his own doing*. And they're not. If Lionel isn't fully in control of himself and hasn't been since Commencement, then his soul doesn't and *shouldn't* get the benefits.

There's also how facile it is: All if forgiven because Lionel's willing to help Clark and protect Clark? I'm sorry, but the question of moral righteousness doesn't *just* come down to whose secrets one is willing to protect. And it also doesn't just come down to whose *side* you're on, if the tenets and principles of that side aren't somehow *actively* your own. Lionel not sending Clark to a lab *now* doesn't somehow completely and totally undo all the other truly awful things he's done *before* now.

many of the things Lionel's done are well-nigh unforgivable, but certainly, if he's supposed to be racking up moral credits towards redemption, then surely those credits should be *his own doing*. And they're not. If Lionel isn't fully in control of himself and hasn't been since Commencement, then his soul doesn't and *shouldn't* get the benefits.

I totally agree. I'm still holding on to a slender hope that Lionel is still playing everyone, at least to the extent the Lionel has control of his own will right now, because I really fear the scenario in which Lex is responsible for Lionel's death and is made to look like a bad guy because after all, Lionel is *reformed* now.
::Rage blackout::

Though what might be an interesting twist is if everybody is convinced that Lionel is reformed, but he's not, he's really playing them, and Lex is the only one who figures it out and has to deal with him. If only I could believe SV writers were capable of pulling off something that subtle!

Ha! Yes, that would be great.

I agree--I would have a rage blackout if the Lex-kills-poor-old-reformed-Lionel plot played out. And

latxcvi is so spot on in saying that Lionel has not sought this redemption and shouldn't be reaping the benefits.

*shudder*

Ok, I vote that Caroline Dries gets to write ALL important Lex episodes from here on, because I agree, that fact that she understands how a character could do truly horrible things yet still believe there's a valid, and perhaps even noble, reason for doing them is crucial to the future development of Lex as a character that is something more than a cardboard villain.

He's also masterful in his handling of Lana, and I love the way MR keeps me guessing as to the true *depth* of Lex's feelings for her.

MR was really on last night, that's for sure. In addition to the scenes with Lana, I thought all his scenes with JM were just *amazing.* Those two play off each other very well.

I also loved Lex to death in this episode. Yay for a motive that makes sense and is heroic in its own way: trying to save the world from a disease unleashed by invading aliens. I also loved that he *told* Clark "I was the good guy here." He was, even if he was played--and he knew he was being played, so he was trying to play Fine.

Yes! WORD. This is the Lex I want to see. He's not evol. He's smart, ambitious, confident, and he stands up for himself. And the shades of humanity-- I love that he thinks of himself as the hero. It isn't a matter of him justifying his actions, he actually thinks he's doing the right thing.

He's invulnerable now, or infected with Brainiac? Or both? What do people think? The previews for next week look awesome, btw.

It appears that Brainiac infused some of his "blood" into the vaccine before injecting Lex. So yes, I think he's been infected with Brainiac. Personally, I'd like to see Brainiac!Lex, but I think the writers are going by way of Fine prepping Lex's body for Zod. Do I like the idea? No. Do I hate it? No. I have no clear feelings about it, but having seen the preview, I'm excited to see what happens.

The Lexana stuff was wonderful. I really love how he's maneuvering Lana deeper and deeper into his web, but telling her about it every step of the way. He really knows how to play her, and yet she's clearly one of the people under his protection now, as his conversation with Clark at the end revealed. Tonight, I could really *see* the iconic Lex Luthor in every scene he was in, and I couldn't be happier.

More WORD. Again, this is smart Lex. One that has not lost his balls. He knows what he's doing here. He's giving Lana exactly what she wants, to get exactly what he wants. And I'm assuming that he still 'wants it all.' I am really intrigued by how their relationship is going to play out. I think he truly has feelings for her, but they're not strong enough to steer him away from his ambitions... And I realize that the more I think about that, the more my Lexana-loving heart dies. So I'll just stop right here.

I am really intrigued by how their relationship is going to play out. I think he truly has feelings for her, but they're not strong enough to steer him away from his ambitions... And I realize that the more I think about that, the more my Lexana-loving heart dies. So I'll just stop right here.

Yeah, I am enjoying the Lexana enough that the inevitable doomed ending saddens me.

It appears that Brainiac infused some of his "blood" into the vaccine before injecting Lex. So yes, I think he's been infected with Brainiac.
So THAT's what he was doing! Thank you! I totally failed to understand that bit. ;-) In which case, though, I don't really understand why that was necessary to prep Lex for Zod. Ah well, Smallville will sweep along whether I understand the details or not...

I just hope Lex gets to keep those super-healing powers once he un-Zods.

I had a feeling a lot of people would be pissed about Lionel, but for me, I don't see it as a redemption tale (and if it is then I'm with you guys because that's RIDICULOUS). I see it as Lionel being forced to pick a side and he's picking the right side because he doesn't actually have an alternative. Clark also doesn't have a choice but to work with Lionel and I'm not getting the impression that he's *forgiven* Lionel for everything he's done. It would be foolish for Clark to refuse Lionel's help at this juncture. Especially now he has hard proof that Fine wants Lionel dead.

I've always been a big fan of villains and heroes having to work together against an even more dangerous foe. As soon as Zod&Co have been defeated and Jor-El stops using Lionel, we'll see him revert back to his old ways, I'm *sure*.

I see it as Lionel being forced to pick a side and he's picking the right side because he doesn't actually have an alternative. Clark also doesn't have a choice but to work with Lionel and I'm not getting the impression that he's *forgiven* Lionel for everything he's done. It would be foolish for Clark to refuse Lionel's help at this juncture.

I like that theory. And I agree with you, I like when heroes and villains are forced to work together, so I would like that to turn out to be what really was happening.

My guess is that we're supposed to think that he's only possessed when his eyes are glazed over, which makes me completely reassess certain aspects of "Mercy."
Yuh, I kind of started to get that idea too. I do think they've been a little clumsy with it, so I am most comfortable with the idea that Jor-El possesses Lionel to greater or lesser degree for short periods every so often, and not permanently, but that this possession has had a lasting influence on Lionel himself, who may not be fully aware of its effects on him.

I loved the 'Clark's specialty' line too, and yes I loved Lex to death in this ep (crazy vaccine not withstanding). Go Lex!

if he ends up being redeemed after everything he has done....I will be very angry.
Oh, lord yes! That needs not to happen. I'm ok with it so far, because it's been made clear that 'alliance' with Lionel is only temporary and is one of forced necessity, but longterm big-picture, Lionel's still Lionel!

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