norwich36 | SV 6.11 Justice

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smallville meta

SV 6.11 Justice

Spoilers ahoy.

I have only two complaints about this episode.
(1) Damn, Chloe really is marked for death now, isn't she? I mean, she might have survived knowing Clark's secret, but I can't see how she's going to survive knowing all their secrets. (Unless they're planning on bringing her into the Green Arrow spinoff that they TOTALLY SHOULD MAKE. REALLY.)

(2)Lionel, what was UP with your beard? It made your face look fat, and I didn't like that at all.

Everything else made me squee. Except the Lois-Ollie breakup, which was full of woe, but so wonderfully acted that even though I knew it was coming, it made me cry. How, how, how does someone who's only been on the show about 6 episodes make me care so much about his relationships? God, Lois was breaking my heart in that scene since she was the dumpee, but it was Ollie who actually made me cry. He does the noble self-sacrifice really believably. And God, when he said "This is the moment I'm going to regret for the rest of my life, isn't it" I really lost it. *Sob* Don't GO, Ollie! Or at least have your own spinoff!

Ollie was completely full of win in this episode, actually. I love that his last episode mirrored his first episode, in that he was investigating Lex--though this time Lex is the one kidnapping and torturing people. In some ways, the existence of the Justice League seemed like a retcon, but I still loved the backstories of the gang with Ollie, and how he basically rescued all of them (just like Clark did, except Ollie gave them a purpose).

I also loved the whole Justice League gang, separately and individually. Even the block of wood playing Aquaman seemed more interesting in this episode, though they were wise to limit his dialogue. Bart was particularly fun to watch, from his flirting with Chloe (continuity) to his taunting of Lex to his bonding with Clark. And while I think some of the banter among them was contrived, I did like "You make one hell of a can opener/You'd look good on a can of green beans." I don't know what I think of the decision to commit arson on the facility, however--that seemed a little too vigilante to me. It did give us that great iconic shot of them, though, so I guess they get cool visual points.

Despite my misgivings about the fact that she is now completely marked for death (or maybe the kiss of forgetfulness?), I *loved* that Chloe got to play Oracle in this. (Actually, I'm not up on my DC Canon--is there someone who actually *is* Watchtower?) I was very surprised that Clark chose to tell her after last week, though. I'm honestly not sure I understand his reasoning, either, but I suspect there are upcoming plot reasons for it.

The Luthors were fantastic tonight as well. I expect some people will probably still be wondering about Lionel's motives, but it seems clear to me that he's deeply implicated in 33.1, and he doesn't object to it except insofar as it's a risk to Luthercorp's public image (he doesn't want to make Martha suspicious) or to Clark (again, because of Martha). And that alibi he gave for Clark to me read less like altruistically protecting Clark's secret and more like keeping vital information for himself, away from Lex, like he has always done.

Lex was perfect in this episode, I thought. He's do damn chilling all those times he steps out from the shadows surrounded by his gunmen. And I loved his imaginative torture for Bart. I also really liked the fact that they gave him a plausible motive for his opposition to the league, one that perfectly mirrors Oliver's motive: Ollie built a league of superpowered beings because Lex is building one; Lex is building one because Ollie is building one. Lex' little speech about terrorists to his dad sounded a lot like future Lex Luthor's presidential campaign. And while I want to make clear that I don't actually condone what Lex is doing--he's definitely gone into evil territory, experimenting on human subjects against their will, and torturing people for information--I do very much appreciate that they are giving him believable motives for this.

We're not *completely* into heroes v. villains mode, though, because the heroes' means are still sometimes questionable. Ollie hired thugs to kidnap Lex, and was therefore morally responsible for Lex being tortured and Lana endangered; he also tried to kill Lex, as we were reminded tonight. Ollie is improving, a little--his arrow only nicked Lex tonight, and that was deliberate--but I really don't think arson is justified. Lex was not completely out of line to refer to the league as terrorists, tonight; certainly all those folks committing arson for the environment or animal rights these days get labelled as terrorists, too.

One final note on the Lollie breakup. We also got confirmation that Victor broke up with his girlfriend, and with the Clark-Lana split that makes three failed relationships because of the hazards of being superpowered. I don't think this bodes well for Clark-anyone shippers at any time in the near future!

I hope that was coherent. I was typing it while watching Gray's anatomy, and
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since I was sobbing like a baby through the whole thing, my concentration was not, perhaps at its best. Oh, George! Oh GOD. I was crying off and on through the whole thing, because I was sure his dad was going to die, but when his whole family turned to him for the decision, I started sobbing and didn't stop, basically, until the end of the show. So basically it's been a weepy night for me. Oh, and that scene with Cristina and George at the end KILLED me. "I don't know how to live in a world without my dad in it." *Hugs George tight*

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The thing about GA that I actually like, when I'm not hating it, is that it doesn't go for the easy happy endings, so I was pretty sure George's dad was going to die the moment he was admitted to the hospital. And yet I still felt like they ripped my heart out.

I would have been more upset with Bailey if it wasn't clear, in that final scene with Izzy, that she acknowledged that whole point. And honestly, since in the real world Izzie WOULD BE IN PRISON AND NEVER PRACTICING SURGERY AGAIN, I actually cut Bailey a lot of slack on her warnings about Izzie being emotionally overinvolved. (I like Izzie's character and I'm glad they didn't write her off the show, but I have to say references to the whole Denny plotline just make STEAM COME OUT OF MY EARS. I have to pretend that didn't happen, or I'd hate Izzie forever. For reals.

Yeah, it's a lot harder for me to like Burke in light of recent events, which is too bad, because I love it when he's being slightly (but only slightly) more mature than Cristina. Though this particular storyline is cute compared to their covering-up-his-tremors one, so again, I can tolerate it.

I'm surprised to find myself liking the Addison storyline, because I do not like Karev at all, but he's kind of cute with her.

The good thing about George's dad's death, though, is that it's going to advance the Callie/George relationship, I'll bet.

Normally I am all about Bailey, however I thought she was hypocritical with Izzie. She penalized Izzie for paying for the surgery not because it was a good thing to do, but because she didn't do it in order to get in on a surgery. She accused Izzie of basically connecting with her patient. Well while Bailey may not have connected with Mr. O'Malley, she is clearly connnected to George and her emotions affected her decisons and judgment. And I'm glad Izzie stood her ground.

I don't know. I mean, yes and no. On one hand, Izzie should have been criticized for what she did: that was a clear conflict of interest. Yes, it was a good thing that she made it possible for the surgery to happen, but she also did it so that she could scrub in as one of the surgeons (even if she never actually copped to it, that is partly why she did it; she wanted in on that surgery because it was a "once in a lifetime" procedure and she wasn't going to get the chance if the surgery didn't happen because of money issues). That's really dubious from the standpoint of professional ethics in and of itself. And then it was compounded by the fact that Izzie was also emotionally invested in Heather's case beyond what's necessary for someone to be an effective doctor. That's why Bailey said, "I was hoping you'd said you did it so you could scrub in," because that, at least, would have indicated that Izzie's personal emotional involvement wasn't completely driving her actions (as that's what got her into trouble with Denny).

On the other hand -- and what I think Bailey realized by the end of the episode, which is why she didn't argue with Izzie -- is that there does have to be some balance and this is where I think what Izzie said at the end was right. Because if you don't emotionally connect with your patients at all, you're probably not going to be as effective a healer as you can be and from the standpoint of just being a decent person, failing to emotionally connect with people makes you someone like Mark. He may be a great surgeon, but he's got pretty crappy people skills and that ultimately does make him less effective as a doctor.

Damn, Chloe really is marked for death now, isn't she? I mean, she might have survived knowing Clark's secret, but I can't see how she's going to survive knowing all their secrets.

Unfortunately, I think you're right. That makes me sad.

when he said "This is the moment I'm going to regret for the rest of my life, isn't it" I really lost it.

Me too! *cries*

He's do damn chilling all those times he steps out from the shadows surrounded by his gunmen.

Good Lord, those were ridiculously hot moments. And indeed, very chilling. *This* is how I want to see Lex.

And Grey's! OMG. GEORGE! *SOBS*

GEORGE! And Lollie breakup! Too much sad TV! Though I may just rewatch the mancandy bits of Justice to console myself. :D

I don't know what I think of the decision to commit arson on the facility, however--that seemed a little too vigilante to me.

It was too vigilante. It's also, IMO, kind of dumb to go around blowing up all the facilities because that's destroying evidence. In the future, a big part of the reason Lex will get away with a lot of his schemes is because the JL basically destroys the evidence when they get all "JL SMASH!" about things. And I do have to wonder if Oliver hadn't run into Lex if he'd've made much of an effort to get people out of the building before blowing it up. I thought it was weird that they treated that like an after-thought on Oliver's part. IOW, he can't have known for sure that Lex would turn up and since he and his team were knocking people unconscious left and right, it seems to me like there should have been some kind of evacuation plan. But Oliver put that on Lex when he just happened to run into him and it was Clark who was so insistent on making sure there was no one left in the building before they blew it up.

Then again, maybe that was deliberate because it made Lex's comments during the scene with Lionel reasonable in a way that they might not have been had Oliver been shown as actually caring about any collateral damage caused by the mission. It's hard to argue with the label "terrorists" when people are not only blowing shit up, but don't seem to have made any precautions to ensure no one gets caught in the blast(s).

The Luthors were fantastic tonight as well. I expect some people will probably still be wondering about Lionel's motives, but it seems clear to me that he's deeply implicated in 33.1, and he doesn't object to it except insofar as it's a risk to Luthercorp's public image (he doesn't want to make Martha suspicious) or to Clark (again, because of Martha).

Right. Lionel isn't on the side of the angels here; no one who was could support the existence of 33.1. He definitely doesn't want to lose Martha's favor, though, so it's very important to him that LC's public image not be linked to something like 33.1.

Grey's totally made me cry, too!

Then again, maybe that was deliberate because it made Lex's comments during the scene with Lionel reasonable in a way that they might not have been had Oliver been shown as actually caring about any collateral damage caused by the mission. It's hard to argue with the label "terrorists" when people are not only blowing shit up, but don't seem to have made any precautions to ensure no one gets caught in the blast(s).

Yes, and it also made Clark's moral code look different from Ollie's/the JL's, which gives him another plausible reason besides having to hunt down Zoners not to join.

I haven't been as emotionally engaged with GA as I was last season, but last night's episode was really stellar. I knew going in it would be really emotionally manipulative, but the acting was so good I didn't even care.

Yes, and it also made Clark's moral code look different from Ollie's/the JL's, which gives him another plausible reason besides having to hunt down Zoners not to join.

*nod* For Clark, collateral damage in the form of people actually getting hurt isn't an acceptable consequence of his actions, but Oliver's "ends justify the means" ideology necessarily means that he has to be willing to accept that kind of collateral damage as the cost of reaching his goals sometimes; you can't be Machiavellian in your approach without having that understanding. Those are fairly diametric positions. To reconcile them with each other is not impossible, but it does require more time and work than either Clark or Oliver can commit right now because they both have other heroing priorities at the moment. So it makes sense that this difference between them was highlighted the way it was, because it's another perfectly organic reason why this version of Kal-El won't join this version of the Justice League until a few more years down the road.

From your main post:

Ollie hired thugs to kidnap Lex, and was therefore morally responsible for Lex being tortured and Lana endangered

I watched Justice again last night and realized that if Oliver's been working with the League for the last six months, then he was working with them when he had Lex kidnapped. Now, sure, he told his minion "No violence," but that doesn't morally absolve him from what happened to Lex at the minion's hands because hi, if you're hiring someone who's got no qualms about kidnapping, which is an act of force in and of itself, then it's reasonably foreseeable that they might not have problems with other applications of force. That realization places Oliver's attitude in Justice into an interesting moral/ethical context, because as to Lex, he himself is at least morally culpable for similar conduct to what Lex is actively doing with 33.1. When looked at from the perspective that part of Oliver's overall impetus with the Green Arrow persona is about atonement, it makes his focus on 33.1 more complex. I could easily imagine that if Oliver found out about 33.1 after the events of Sneeze, it caused him to re-evaluate his actions in that episode, particularly as those actions contributed not only to Lex getting tortured and Lana being endangered, but to someone's death (Pontius, Lex's P.I.). So tearing down 33.1 isn't just about Oliver stopping Lex's bad behavior, but it's also, at least a little bit, about atoning for his own.

When looked at from the perspective that part of Oliver's overall impetus with the Green Arrow persona is about atonement, it makes his focus on 33.1 more complex. I could easily imagine that if Oliver found out about 33.1 after the events of Sneeze, it caused him to re-evaluate his actions in that episode, particularly as those actions contributed not only to Lex getting tortured and Lana being endangered, but to someone's death (Pontius, Lex's P.I.). So tearing down 33.1 isn't just about Oliver stopping Lex's bad behavior, but it's also, at least a little bit, about atoning for his own.

I think that's a more charitable reading than I'm inclined to give of Ollie's feelings about his past actions. I mean, I do think that working with Clark has made him a little more careful in his methods and less likely to directly harm the bad guys (e.g. the arrow just grazing Lex's cheek instead of another arrow in the heart), but I don't know that I believe blowing up the warehouse is linked to his own atonement. I think it can just as easily be read as his denial that he is similar to Lex in any way; if he is justified in using force to prevent Lex's experiments, he was justified in doing so in the past, if that makes any sense.

I think that's a more charitable reading than I'm inclined to give of Ollie's feelings about his past actions. I mean, I do think that working with Clark has made him a little more careful in his methods and less likely to directly harm the bad guys (e.g. the arrow just grazing Lex's cheek instead of another arrow in the heart), but I don't know that I believe blowing up the warehouse is linked to his own atonement ... if he is justified in using force to prevent Lex's experiments, he was justified in doing so in the past, if that makes any sense.

Oh, it makes perfect sense. What's funny is that I was actually trying to come up with a spin on Oliver's actions in Justice that made them less offensive to my own sensibilities (since his methodology is a big part of why I don't like him). It's a more sympathetic reading than I've been inclined to give the character all season, but no, I'm not completely convinced that it's the case so much as I can see where it might be a possibility.

I think it can just as easily be read as his denial that he is similar to Lex in any way; if he is justified in using force to prevent Lex's experiments, he was justified in doing so in the past, if that makes any sense.

I think this is the more likely explanation of what's going on. I just got done saying to someone else that Oliver's sense of personal enmity towards Lex actually seems kind of ... OTT to me when one considers their actual history with each other. After all, it wasn't Lex and his minions who mercilessly bullied Ollie in boarding school. As I said:

Clark arguably has reasons to hate Lex, but near as I can tell, the worst thing Lex has ever done to Oliver personally was co-opting his research back in 'Rage'. I don't have any issue at all with Oliver morally disapproving of Lex or Lex's methods, but the way he acts as though Lex personally killed his dog or his parents is kind of drama queeny.

But that intensely personal enmity on Oliver's part -- as opposed to the more emotionally detached but still morally righteous disapproval of Lex that, say, Victor has -- makes a lot of sense if it's more about Oliver (1) rejecting the ways in which he's very similar to Lex and understands that he could have been Lex but-for making different choices; and/or (2) his own guilt about his past treatment of Lex when they were kids manifesting itself as hatred, i.e., when Oliver looks at Lex, he's reminded of his own indefensible behavior of the past and he projects the more personal disgust his feels about it onto Lex.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that there's no reason for Oliver to dislike/disapprove of Lex. Lex is a shady mofo, so of course there are reasons to disapprove of/dislike him. It's just that Oliver's enmity seems really disproportionate to what we actually know of what Lex has -- and hasn't -- done to Oliver personally.

think this is the more likely explanation of what's going on. I just got done saying to someone else that Oliver's sense of personal enmity towards Lex actually seems kind of ... OTT to me when one considers their actual history with each other. After all, it wasn't Lex and his minions who mercilessly bullied Ollie in boarding school....I don't have any issue at all with Oliver morally disapproving of Lex or Lex's methods, but the way he acts as though Lex personally killed his dog or his parents is kind of drama queeny.But that intensely personal enmity on Oliver's part -- as opposed to the more emotionally detached but still morally righteous disapproval of Lex that, say, Victor has -- makes a lot of sense if it's more about Oliver (1) rejecting the ways in which he's very similar to Lex and understands that he could have been Lex but-for making different choices; and/or (2) his own guilt about his past treatment of Lex when they were kids manifesting itself as hatred, i.e., when Oliver looks at Lex, he's reminded of his own indefensible behavior of the past and he projects the more personal disgust his feels about it onto Lex.

Yes, I totally agree with all of that--especially Ollie rejecting Lex as a way of rejecting his own past self/projecting his own issues onto Lex. Though your mention of Victor does remind me that there *is* a more personal reason for Ollie to hate Lex, if he's really bonded with his teammates; Lex did unforgiveable things to both Arthur and Victor. Though it's odd that it would be Ollie and not Arthur or Victor who takes it more personally.

Like you, I think Ollie's attitude that Lex needs to be taken down is justified by Lex's behavior; it's the more personal animus that seems less warranted.

I literally found myself bouncing in my chair while watching this episode!!! Everyone totally rocked it ... and AC did good with the jokes, just keep him shirtless and we're fine!!

I teared up SO bad at the Lollie breakup ... Ollie totally won in the episode, in all ways!! I felt bad for Lois, but Ollie just made me cry ...

Yeah, AC works best as eyecandy. Giving him very few lines also helped.

I'll definitely miss Ollie.

I also really liked the fact that they gave him a plausible motive for his opposition to the league, one that perfectly mirrors Oliver's motive: Ollie built a league of superpowered beings because Lex is building one; Lex is building one because Ollie is building one.

I actually laughed a bit when Lex used Ollie's team as justification for what he was doing because Lex didn't know about the JL when he started up 33.1. Oh, Lex. You're just so twisted. It actually made me think of a recent issue of Superman... Clark had been depowered and essentially vanished for a year. When he re-emerged to stop Lex's latest evil plot, Lex went on a big emotional rant about how his talents were wasted, because he had to devote his time and energy and brainpower to defeating Superman because he was a threat to humanity and damn it, if it wasn't for Superman, Lex could have cured cancer or something. And Clark's response was basically, "Dude, I've been gone for a whole year. How'd that curing cancer thing come along while I wasn't even here?"

Heh.

Anyway.

Lex' little speech about terrorists to his dad sounded a lot like future Lex Luthor's presidential campaign. And while I want to make clear that I don't actually condone what Lex is doing--he's definitely gone into evil territory, experimenting on human subjects against their will, and torturing people for information--I do very much appreciate that they are giving him believable motives for this.

Yes to this. Exactly. I do think that the "freedom and democracy," and invoking the dreaded T-word, and using it to excuse torture... it really does make Lex's position realistic — all too realistic — and extremely relevant.

I actually laughed a bit when Lex used Ollie's team as justification for what he was doing because Lex didn't know about the JL when he started up 33.1.

True, but he did know about dangerous aliens who appeared to be invading. YMMV, but I don't find the retcon of Lex's motives here to be more egregious than the apparent retcon that Ollie created the Justice League 6 months before he came to Metropolis. I'm not saying that Lex wasn't being disingenuous with his dad; I just happen to like it when they give Lex motives for being evil, rather than just painting him as suddenly descending into mustache twirling (or ponytail twirling, as the case may be). When it's clear that Lex is telling himself that he's doing bad things for the greater good, I like it, because I think most really evil men do feel their choices are justified in some way.

I have to say, I deliberately did *not* make the Lex/Bush connection--but it pretty much makes itself, doesn't it?

True, but he did know about dangerous aliens who appeared to be invading. YMMV, but I don't find the retcon of Lex's motives here to be more egregious than the apparent retcon that Ollie created the Justice League 6 months before he came to Metropolis.

Oh, no — I'm not disagreeing with you about how nice it is to see motives. It just seemed slightly different to me; while the writers were the source of the apparent retcon about when Ollie created his team (and it was an effective retcon, because it fit in with Ollie's originally stated motives for arriving in Metropolis), it really did play like Lex was revising his own story as he went along. Which suited the scene, and the character, extremely well. He seamlessly incorporated the existence of the baby JLA into his preexisting self-justifications without missing a beat, and to me, it seemed exactly in line with comics!Lex.

I have to say, I deliberately did *not* make the Lex/Bush connection--but it pretty much makes itself, doesn't it?

Heh.

Oh, and I love the new icon, btw!

Well, I'm always interested to hear your comics-centered perspective, because I know almost none of that canon (except for a handful of JLU episodes), and it's good to hear that Lex is reflecting his comics persona. And I definitely agree that Lex is revising his own motives to justify himself--that seems totally in character.

The title of the icon came from a comment

cosmic made in someone's review--possibly

svmadelyn's. I loved it so much I had to icon it.

I think this was the best episode since the Pilot. (Maybe it wasn't, but it was the awesomest. I squeed so much!)

I like this Justice League so much. I love that they have their names already, all but Clark. And Bart is Impulse! I could never quite accept him as Bart Allen, because comics Bart was so cute and everything, but now I'm sorta swayed. And Cyborg and Aquaman (the scene with the shirt!!! banter=win) And Chloe! Watchtower! I was like... hey, I wrote this three days ago! She isn't going to die, she's going to work for the League *in denial*

And Lex was great. See, this is what he can be if he doesn't waste his time with Lana. (I hated his terrorists/democracy speech for a moment, but then I realized that SV was equating Bush propaganda with evil villains and I loved it :D)

Lionel is keeping Clark's secret for selfish reasons, but that little speech about the dinner? Was totally to rub it in Lex's face that Clark is a much better son than Lex. And it worked. (I wouldn't have thought that Lionel could still hurt Lex that much.)

I'm so sad that Ollie is leaving. He was the coolest extra SV ever had. And he and Lois were the best romance they ever had.

The only way this could have been any better is if the Martian Manhunter had been in it.

(Oh, and it proved how completely superfluous Lana is.)

I'd be perfectly happy if they brought Chloe over to their new Justice League show.

And I completely agree that Lionel was trying to rub Lex's face in his closeness to the Kents. He's definitely back to his bastardous self, no question about it.

I think it's too early for MM to be working with the League; I really wish Wonder Woman had been in it, though.

Yeah, it's true, MM is a very adult aspect of the JL and right now they're still more the Teen Titans (even more with Impulse and Cyborg on the team). I'd love to see a youthful SV version of WW. What'd she be like? Would she wear a hoodie, too?

I didn't doubt that Lionel was evil since "Zod", what with the kryptonian symbols spelling out POWER.

Are they making a Justice League show? Seriously? Everyone is talking about this in commentary to Justice... That'd be the most squee-worthy thing ever and it's about time to wrap SV up - not that I want it to be finished, but almost everyone's in the place they were supposed to end up in, so why drag it out?

Everyone is spreading rumors about the JL show, but so far there is no official word that they're even considering this. It depends a lot on how this episode did in the ratings. And of course, I'm sure TW wouldn't do the show. And they're not going to cancel SV to do it, anyhow; SV is still one of the highest-rated shows on the new CW, even if its ratings are down from last year so I doubt they'll cancel it before the 7th season is over. At any rate, if they *did* launch a JL show they'd want to promote it on SV, or at any rate in the commercial breaks of SV, since that's the obvious crossover audience.

I somehow missed reading your Smallville recap until just now. I had to scroll down my friends list to find it and I'm glad I did. Wonderful job norwich. I don't have anything to add to your thoughts (I'm way too tired to think straight), but I just wanted you to know how much I appreciate your reviews. You and bop radar are my two "must-reads" for Smallville episode reviews.

Oh, thank you! That's very sweet of you to say.

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SV 6.11 Justice

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