I didn't answer the last b/c I didn't see it as Castiel pitting Dean against Sam. I think Castiel was giving Dean a hard shake and telling him to be his brother's keeper, to wake up and stop Sam before he goes in too deep. Like John said, Dean has to stop Sam going dark or he has to kill him if he does. Castiel is just echoing that.
Well, I didn't agree with that command when John gave it to Dean, and I trust John Winchester a lot more than I trust Castiel, at this point. But that is a nice charitable reading of that scene.
if Dean can't save Sam from going dark then it means Sam is dark and fully under demonic influence. I doubt Dean would want to see his brother like that.
I don't know, more than 500 evil!Sam or Sam-the-antichrist stories suggest that it's not so cut-and-dry. (I, um, have a bit of a weakness for evil!Sam, so I'm not likely to be objective on this.)
The thing about destiny is that even if Dean hadn’t been there, I still think Azazel would have found Mary, considering that he was targeting the area including a friend of hers. It would have been offset by a few days or weeks but not by much to make a noticeable difference in the long scheme of things. Without Dean there, I still imagine everyone doing what they had done. The VW bus vs Chevy too, John didn’t need much convincing did he? ;-)
Now, where my head hurts is this whole destiny thing because doesn’t that take free will out of the equation? Although, I guess that goes back to Smallville where it is people’s inherent characteristics that compel them to make the choices they make, and by these destinies are made — people have no control of their destinies despite the fact that they choose their destinies.
That said, I think it was cruel of Castiel to have made Dean a part of the events. Does Dean really have to go through that emotional torture? And I got the feeling Dean was being used as bait. Oh, we need to know what he had planned with Sammy… Oh, we can use Dean. He’s close enough to everyone that he’ll try to uncover everything and/or kill Azazel. It just rubs me the wrong way that Dean isn’t being made an equal — in that information is withheld from him — regarding decisions that impact his and a lot of other people’s futures and destinies. The closest analogy I can come up with is how Veritas’ members treated Clark.
As for Azazel, as a warrior of God, I think angels aren’t above the line of thought that goes, “All’s fair in love and war.” Which makes both sides of the war pretty scary.
I am not trusting Castiel on the destiny thing. I think it was one timeline and dependant on Dean travelling backward for it to occur. Otherwise, why the cryptic command Castiel gave him to "stop it," guaranteeing he'd go bumbling around and interfering things? And John was about to sign the papers on the VW bus--I can't see why he would have changed his mind if Dean wasn't there. Similarly, Mary's friend would have been visited by Azazel and then he would have left; I'm not really sure he would have encountered her at all.
But whether my reading or your reading of the destiny angle is the correct one, I agree with you that Castiel is being quite cruel to Dean. Perhaps not intentionally, but he clearly just sees Dean as a tool in the struggle.
But see, that's why it is destiny. If he changes things, then he doesn't exist to come back and change them. Since he does exist as is and comes back to then, then he obviously doesn't change anything. (I'm a big fan of timelines dependent on the time travel. Except for the Christopher Reeve/Jane Seymour movie because that was just a bad movie. But my mom brought the watch up every time we talked about time travel as kids.) In Dean's subjective reality, nothing can ever change. If he changes something, then it would have to spin out a different timeline and he'd then be in a parallel universe and he'd (a) cease to exist, (b) return to the future in his own timeline where nothing's changed, or (c) return to the changed future and find that everything's fucked up because now there are two of him and the Sammy he finds is not the Sammy he left behind.
Those aren't the only possibilities, though. For example, some people are arguing that the whole thing is just a dream. Also, there's the possibility that he does change things, and when he returns to the present he simply doesn't remember the other timeline at all.
But if it's all just a dream, then it doesn't matter if the past is changeable or not because he can't get back there to change it. And if he just doesn't remember the other timeline, then my argument that Dean's subjective reality stays the same still holds. (I keep thinking about "In My End Is My Beginning" for arguments about subjective reality.)
I also keep thinking about how Mary still gets out of bed even though Dean warned her. I wonder if he's somehow different in the past, like we can see him as is, but the angels have put a glamour over him so no one from the past will remember him in the future. Or if they erase all memories of him from people's minds once he's back in his own time. (Again, like "In My End Is My Beginning.")
I've been thinking about this all evening since I watched the ep. So far we have very one sided exposition. Whilst I'd love them to have an 'ahhh, but..' up their sleaves I'm quite concerned that the reading that Sam's playing around with his demonic powers is only pulling him further into YE's end game will turn out to be pretty dead on. Mind you, it's very early in the season for things to be that simple, right?
I think I'll sit on the fence until we find out more about exactly what Sam's been up to. We've only had glimpses so far. And unless Sam's been relagated to secondary character (which at the moment is sadly somewhat true) there has to be alot more to this.
I think I'll sit on the fence until we find out more about exactly what Sam's been up to. We've only had glimpses so far. And unless Sam's been relagated to secondary character (which at the moment is sadly somewhat true) there has to be alot more to this.
I agree that until we know what Sam is doing it's hard to judge how reliable, exactly, Castiel is. (And I believe the main reason we've seen less of Sam this season is the need for reshoots for Jared's movie? That's why he was mostly written out of this script, anyway).
I don't dislike his absence. I just think that the way it was done was in line with a trend on the show of making it all about Dean. Sam may be the central figure in what's happening but in the end it all comes down to how Dean copes with things. It could have been tweaked to make it less so.
Dean isn't going to work against Sammy no matter who's telling him to, AND THUS the Winchester brothers are going to team up against everyone else. And probably win. *nods firmly*
I actually was almost worried they might possibly have Mary put the moves on Dean once or twice there (didn't that happen in Back To The Future or something? it's a genre cliche), but she didn't. *whewI mean, is disappointed I mean, whew*
Was Castiel telling the truth when he told Dean that the past was unchangeable because destiny is fixed?
This is the problem with time travel. Either Dean changed things which means he's now in a different timeline so WTF, or else the universe is mutable and time isn't linear and the question is pointless so WTF, or else that's what had already happened always already in which case the future is as real and solid as the past so WTF. I do think that what they did well was structure it so that Dean obviously and completely caused everything he was trying to stop, and yet not have any character point that out. I'm wondering how Sam will react to the news. All in all I don't think that the show goes in for complete predestination (the portrayal of Sam's visions is long-established against the concept) so I am not too worried. Or at least, not a separate worry, still just worried about the God question.
But Mary was so awesome!!!!! Totes worth a little confusion to see all that.
I kind of want the spinoff "Mary the hunter" now. Except how she gave up hunting and all.
And I completely and totally want to see Mary/Dean. Umm. Did I say that out loud? Of all the pairings up there, that's the one I find (a) most plausible and (b) least likely to squick me. (Well, it would squick me some, but not nearly as much as Samuel/Mary. And John/Dean just doesn't seem very plausible; they barely interact in any kind of meaningful way).
Yes, Mary/Dean would be hot. She's definitely the kind of woman I would want Dean to end up with (aside from being his mother and all). It was cute how he was gushing about her to Sam (cute in an OH DEAN with his FAMILY way).
Also, I would find it hilarious to see him try to fend her off if she hit on him.
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Now, where my head hurts is this whole destiny thing because doesn’t that take free will out of the equation? Although, I guess that goes back to Smallville where it is people’s inherent characteristics that compel them to make the choices they make, and by these destinies are made — people have no control of their destinies despite the fact that they choose their destinies.
That said, I think it was cruel of Castiel to have made Dean a part of the events. Does Dean really have to go through that emotional torture? And I got the feeling Dean was being used as bait. Oh, we need to know what he had planned with Sammy… Oh, we can use Dean. He’s close enough to everyone that he’ll try to uncover everything and/or kill Azazel. It just rubs me the wrong way that Dean isn’t being made an equal — in that information is withheld from him — regarding decisions that impact his and a lot of other people’s futures and destinies. The closest analogy I can come up with is how Veritas’ members treated Clark.
As for Azazel, as a warrior of God, I think angels aren’t above the line of thought that goes, “All’s fair in love and war.” Which makes both sides of the war pretty scary.
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But whether my reading or your reading of the destiny angle is the correct one, I agree with you that Castiel is being quite cruel to Dean. Perhaps not intentionally, but he clearly just sees Dean as a tool in the struggle.
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I also keep thinking about how Mary still gets out of bed even though Dean warned her. I wonder if he's somehow different in the past, like we can see him as is, but the angels have put a glamour over him so no one from the past will remember him in the future. Or if they erase all memories of him from people's minds once he's back in his own time. (Again, like "In My End Is My Beginning.")
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I think I'll sit on the fence until we find out more about exactly what Sam's been up to. We've only had glimpses so far. And unless Sam's been relagated to secondary character (which at the moment is sadly somewhat true) there has to be alot more to this.
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I agree that until we know what Sam is doing it's hard to judge how reliable, exactly, Castiel is. (And I believe the main reason we've seen less of Sam this season is the need for reshoots for Jared's movie? That's why he was mostly written out of this script, anyway).
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I actually was almost worried they might possibly have Mary put the moves on Dean once or twice there (didn't that happen in Back To The Future or something? it's a genre cliche), but she didn't. *
whewI mean, is disappointedI mean, whew*Was Castiel telling the truth when he told Dean that the past was unchangeable because destiny is fixed?
This is the problem with time travel. Either Dean changed things which means he's now in a different timeline so WTF, or else the universe is mutable and time isn't linear and the question is pointless so WTF, or else that's what had already happened always already in which case the future is as real and solid as the past so WTF. I do think that what they did well was structure it so that Dean obviously and completely caused everything he was trying to stop, and yet not have any character point that out. I'm wondering how Sam will react to the news. All in all I don't think that the show goes in for complete predestination (the portrayal of Sam's visions is long-established against the concept) so I am not too worried. Or at least, not a separate worry, still just worried about the God question.
But Mary was so awesome!!!!! Totes worth a little confusion to see all that.
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And I completely and totally want to see Mary/Dean. Umm. Did I say that out loud? Of all the pairings up there, that's the one I find (a) most plausible and (b) least likely to squick me. (Well, it would squick me some, but not nearly as much as Samuel/Mary. And John/Dean just doesn't seem very plausible; they barely interact in any kind of meaningful way).
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Also, I would find it hilarious to see him try to fend her off if she hit on him.