norwich36: (Castiel I'm no angel)
norwich36 ([personal profile] norwich36) wrote2008-11-21 12:19 am
Entry tags:

SPN: Heaven and Hell



Before I get to the theological issues, which were of most interest to me in this episode and will probably just make all my readers' eyes glaze over, let me quickly list the other things I loved about this episode:

1. Anna is an angel! I didn't guess that in any way, shape or form.

2. Angel v. Demon smackdown! And while Alistair's pseudo-godfather thing was annoying, he was convincingly scary enough to go up against that badass Uriel, who continuously pisses me off but is nevertheless clearly badass.

3. SAM'S BRILLIANT PLAN. Holy SHIT, he set it up so both Dean and Ruby would "betray" their sides just to get the angels and demons there at the same time. You are a master tactician, sir. And Dean and Ruby? You both had me completely convinced that you sold out, so well-played. (That scene with Dean and Anna was heartbreaking, *especially* in light of the confession Dean gave Sam at the end.)

4. Dean's confession. *OH MY HEART* Dean, you held out as long as you had been alive as a human without breaking--no one could have expected more from you (except yourself), but oh GOD. No wonder you feel unworthy. Oh, DEAN.

5. I loved Sam and Dean facing down the angels when they first came to get Anna. Hopeless, yes, but so them in their noble last-standedness. And interestingly that Dean goes immediately to the violence against Uriel for tossing Ruby, while Sam tries the rational appeal to Castiel. A reversal of what we would have expected before the last episode, I think. OH DEAN. I love when you get over (some of) your prejudices, and there's nothing like a common enemy, right?

6. Sweet and gentle sex in the Impala FTW. (And never having seen Titanic--this by the way is a deliberate and lifelong choice of mine-- means I don't have to worry about references to it, la la la. So I can appreciate how, as a number of people's reviews have pointed out, Dean may continuously confuse porn with real life (twice in this very episode!) but at heart he's all schmoopy and romantic when he has sex, while well-mannered Sam is an animal in bed.)

7. The return of PAMELA! Damn, she is kickass even when blind. I love that she deliberately chose the spooky plastic eyes for the extra psychic look, and that she's still flirting like crazy with Sam and Dean, and that she has a big hate-on for angels, because I totally would too, in her place.

8. No supporting female characters were killed in this episode. AMAZING. (And I've seen some complaints about the Ruby torture sequence, and I guess I should rewatch, but the first time through I was mostly impressed with how brave she was being, and how surprisingly loyal to Sam--maybe she really does love him--and, um, the parallels with Dean. So the gratuitousness didn't even register on my radar.


Now onto the theological implications of this episode as they pertain to SPN Cosmology

Grace and angelic power
Ok, I'll grant that exposition-wise, it was a little clunky, but to be honest, I fail to see the problem with falling angels appearing as meteors. Um, we've canonically seen that angels are so powerful and in their true forms emit such powerful light that it (a) blinds people and (b)can apparently wipe out existence super-powerful demons (I hope, at least!). So yeah, it seems a little, um, premodern? Just like "grace" being an actual physical substance, instead of a supernatural one, is--less elegant to modern sensibilities, perhaps, than the notion of spiritual grace.

But it actually works very well for what Kripke is trying to do in this episode, which is of course eat his cake and have it too. Introducing angels scared a lot of viewers not simply because it seemed to be Christianizing this universe more than a lot of people felt comfortable with, but also because it seemed to put God into play, and both theologically and writing-wise, that's like putting a thumb on the scale.

But this episode confirmed for us that the angels aren't necessarily carrying out God's plan--only 4 angels in existence even know what it is. So in a sense these angels are in a similar situation as the demons in hell: they're just obeying higher-ups and trusting in the existence and guidance of God (Lucifer). And apparently in some ways things are even worse for demons than angels, since the punishment for disobedience is death.

Are we going to see any of these 4 angels, I wonder? My bet would be not this season. And despite the fact that Uriel is generally counted as one of the 4 archangels, I think we pretty much got confirmation he is not one of them in the SPN-verse tonight, because Anna had not seen God, and she outranked both Uriel and Castiel. Plus Dean's conversation with Uriel in his dream seemed to indicate Castiel now outranks Uriel.

Anyway, getting back to grace as a physical substance: it's the source of angelic power; it's a force of creation; and it can be removed. I imagine that removing grace is going to turn out to be the way you kill an angel, by making them mortal so they can be killed. I also wonder now if perhaps Ruby's knife, and maybe the colt, are manufactured out of angelic grace? Because it's a life force, but one so powerful it can injure demons and humans, as we've already seen. And yet making it a substance that can be removed demystifies it, a bit, and I think this whole episode was about demystifying angels, just like last season demystified demons.

Angels, humans, demons

I've seen several people ask where Lucifer comes from if fallen angels become human and fallen humans become demons. But we've only seen one fallen angel become human--and she didn't just become human because she fell; I get the sense that becoming a human was not simply a desire for her but also a literal refuge, hiding from the angels who wanted to punish her for disobedience.

We could still assume, until SPN writers decide to tell us otherwise, that Lucifer is a fallen angel--perhaps leading a rebellion against God got punished with a more severe punishment than death, back when God wasn't being a Deus Otiosus? My guess for the moment, and I'm sure I stole this idea from someone else, is that Lucifer and some of his original supporters got cast down to hell rather than just getting killed for their rebellion--and Alistair was one of those fallen angels, which is why he was immune to the knife. Does that mean he still has his grace, in a somewhat perverted form? Or maybe pieces of it? I would like to know if he actually was zapped out of existence or just to hell by Anna's ascension, because that would help my hypothesizing.

For plot reasons, I can see why they decided to go with Deus Otiosus (theologically, a high god who created the world but then withdraws from it, making no interference in its running at all)--it means that God isn't, necessarily, on anyone's side; the angels could be doing this all on their own, with Uriel and Castiel simply taking orders from higher up the angelic hierarchy. If they're going that route, though, I'm surprised they keep referencing the 2000 year figure, since an Incarnation isn't very compatible with a Deus Otiosus. Though maybe they're referencing the life of Brian rather than the life of Christ? :D


Angels v. Humans
Somehow, in stories humans tell about angels, angels always like our life better. Funny how that works. (What can I say, I read a lot of R.A. McAvoy as a child.) It makes perfect sense that Anna would covet our free will, and chocolate cake and sex and emotions, both good and bad. The great twist about this turned out to be that Dean really wanted the great angelic gift of being impassible.

I really found their bonding moments believable--especially both of them doing their duty, taking orders from a distant father they didn't understand. Damn. I really hope we haven't seen the last of her, and I really really really hope people are at this moment writing lots of Dean/Anna and Dean/Anna/Castiel stories.

I've seen some speculation that Anna's story makes it possible that Dean *is* in fact another one of those fallen angels and doesn't even realize it himself, which would be wicked cool. ([livejournal.com profile] musesfool, your Michael v. Lucifer speculation becomes more plausible all the time!!) But I actually think it would be even better if it turned out that SAM was the angel--maybe he could reclaim his grace and it would cancel out his demon blood, or something.

On a lighter note, I LOVED LOVED LOVED Dean taunting Uriel for being a Ken doll.

I apologise in advance for the blather. *g*

[identity profile] serrico.livejournal.com 2008-11-21 10:42 am (UTC)(link)
I think this whole episode was about demystifying angels, just like last season demystified demons.

Since Castiel showed up in 'Lazarus Rising', I've been hoping that Kripke was going to go the same route as a show from the mid-1990s I'm weirdly fond of--Roar--and use Christianity as a *mythology* moreso than a religion. (Ie, putting Christian stories/characters on the same playing field as "Samhain" or the infamous "lore" the boys were always referencing in s1; making the Bible into a supernatural text along the same lines as any of the other dusty old religious tomes the boys have consulted over the years.) To me, this ep seems to indicate that that might indeed be the goal, precisely because it *did* "demystify" the angels.

While, yeah, there was some clunky exposition to be had, I'm *really interested* in how SPN's cosmology is shaping up: it really does seem to be boiling down to a big ol' war between Good and Evil, a war predicated upon a quintessentially human predicament--chosing between the two. As concepts, "good" and "evil" have been quantified and qualified in religious terms (and, most stridently, *Christian* terms) for so long that a surefire way to access them for most people--and one of the more compelling ways to discuss them--is via the allegory of God and Satan. Therefore, incorporating God/Satan/Angels/Demons into its universe allows SPN to take on an epic scope it probably couldn't have achieved if it had stuck with making up random good and bad forces, or lifting them from dead religions. As you mentioned, though, it also ran the risk of alienating viewers who are wary of an overly-Christianized message (the "Touched By An Angel" effect, as it were *g*). But by "demystifying" both angels and demons--by showing us Ruby and Uriel, who actively contradict their traditionally assigned roles as personifications of "evil" and "good"; by telling us that fallen angels appear as meteors and an angel's grace is a physical thing that can be removed, bottled, planted, *used*; by giving us Castiel and Anna, angels who doubt and choose--the SPN cosmology ends up actually carrying a particularly humanist core: it boils religious symbols and stories down to relatably human characters and natural events.

"There's a weird light arcing across the sky!" becomes "There's a light from Heaven, where God Our Father resides." becomes "There's a meteor." By reverse-engineering the meteor *back* into an angel falling to Earth--which is not traditionally-recognised Christian imagery *or* an old wives' tale along the lines of "thunder happens when God goes bowling"--Kripke's mythologising Christianity, thereby demystifying it for his audience, thereby allowing him to namedrop God and guest-star angels in a beefcakey horror/suspense show on the friggin' CW.

For this, I admire him greatly. :)

Re: I apologise in advance for the blather. *g*

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2008-11-21 10:50 am (UTC)(link)
It is so far past my bedtime that I'm not really conscious at the moment, but YES. But by "demystifying" both angels and demons--by showing us Ruby and Uriel, who actively contradict their traditionally assigned roles as personifications of "evil" and "good"; by telling us that fallen angels appear as meteors and an angel's grace is a physical thing that can be removed, bottled, planted, *used*; by giving us Castiel and Anna, angels who doubt and choose--the SPN cosmology ends up actually carrying a particularly humanist core: it boils religious symbols and stories down to relatably human characters and natural events.

Yes, exactly! And I really liked how you put this: By reverse-engineering the meteor *back* into an angel falling to Earth--which is not traditionally-recognised Christian imagery *or* an old wives' tale along the lines of "thunder happens when God goes bowling"--Kripke's mythologising Christianity, thereby demystifying it for his audience, thereby allowing him to namedrop God and guest-star angels in a beefcakey horror/suspense show on the friggin' CW.

It really makes the angels a lot more palatable, to me, that he's doing for them *exactly* what he did with Samhain: totally, deliberately creatively misreading the tradition in order to create his own mythological universe. Because, like you pointed out, it's really a humanist rather than a religious view of the universe that he's creating.
rsadelle: (Default)

Re: I apologise in advance for the blather. *g*

[personal profile] rsadelle 2008-11-21 05:08 pm (UTC)(link)
a big ol' war between Good and Evil, a war predicated upon a quintessentially human predicament--chosing between the two.

I was thinking about the issue of choice when Ruby was choosing to help hide Anna from the demons. I kept thinking about Harry Potter: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." (I actually know this quote more from a list of emotional intelligence quotes about choices than from remembering it from the book.)
rsadelle: (Default)

[personal profile] rsadelle 2008-11-21 05:05 pm (UTC)(link)
I liked this episode waaaaaay better than last week, although I thought the Ruby torture was pretty gratuitous.

The sex in the Impala: I just keep laughing at sex scenes on this show. I kept saying, "There's no way there's that much room in this car!" I did love Anna carefully fitting her hands to the handprints on Dean. Wow.

Sam and Dean outwitting both sides: this is exactly what I've been wanting from them. Exactly.

Dean confusing porn with real life: hilarious. Also, hilarious in the way it echoes my irritation with CW sex scenes because I've seen too much porn.

What if Lucifer was a fallen angel who then fell further from human to demon?

I may have been reading too much J2 fic recently, because while Dean was making me cry at the end, I was also thinking about Jensen having to do the crying.

Dean taking orders from an absent father: Oh, Dean, baby.

There totally needs to be some kind of Dean/Anna/Castiel something - because I think Castiel was jealous (in as much as a nonfeeling entity can be) that Anna got to have sex with Dean. He didn't look very pleased with Anna kissing Dean.

Am I the only one who thought The CW was pushing One Tree Hill REALLY HARD? I wonder if they're hoping Jensen fans who watched Dawson's Creek will want to watch OTH because of James Van Der Beek.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2008-11-22 12:23 am (UTC)(link)
I thought the Ruby torture was pretty gratuitous.

Lots of people agree with you there--I've seen that complaint in multiple reviews. Like I said above, I do want to rewatch and see if it pings me differently--for one thing, I am usually taking notes when I watch, so I wasn't actively watching the whole scene. I generally look away from that kind of thing, anyway. But I thought its inclusion was actually thematic, illustrating the type of thing Dean had to endure every day for thirty years. It makes it a little harder for the audience to judge him for breaking if we can't even stand to *watch* a torture scene for a couple minutes.

I just keep laughing at sex scenes on this show. I kept saying, "There's no way there's that much room in this car!" I did love Anna carefully fitting her hands to the handprints on Dean. Wow.

I will admit to having the same thoughts about the spaciousness of the Impala and the improbable logistics of sex therein. I didn't find that scene particularly sexy, but it didn't make me cringe either. I mean, shirtless Dean is never a bad thing in my book.

Dean confusing porn with real life: hilarious. Also, hilarious in the way it echoes my irritation with CW sex scenes because I've seen too much porn.

Ahah! I think you were the one [livejournal.com profile] morgandawn was referencing when she mentioned people complaining about too much porn on the CW. (I am of the opinion that there is never too much porn on SPN. They could film the whole thing naked and really, I would not complain.) Though God, I will never stop laughing at the fond exasperation in Sam's voice whenever he's explaining to Dean how civilized people do things, and the porn stuff is probably the best example of it.

I mean, only DEAN could reference Penthouse forum in the presence of an actual angel. OH DEAN.

What if Lucifer was a fallen angel who then fell further from human to demon?

That is certainly a possibility. I mean, they are clearly making up all this shit as they go along creatively misreading the biblical tradition as they construct their cosmology, so that may turn out to be the case. I want to go back and rewatch exactly what Anna says in that scene, though, because I got the impression that it was her choice to turn human by entering her mom. (Sounds creepy when you phrase it that way). Otherwise, I got the impression, she'd just be a disembodied soul floating around or something like that.

There totally needs to be some kind of Dean/Anna/Castiel something - because I think Castiel was jealous (in as much as a nonfeeling entity can be) that Anna got to have sex with Dean. He didn't look very pleased with Anna kissing Dean.

Definitely. Though I suppose the official SPN party line would be that Castiel is jealous of Dean getting to kiss Anna rather than the reverse. I just posted a comment somewhere positing that (a)either Anna was exaggerating the impassibility of angels somewhat, which is certainly a possibility--she managed to generate enough doubt to fall, after all--or (b)angels that inhabit bodies for a long time start to take on human emotions, because it's clear that both Castiel and Uriel have emotions.

Am I the only one who thought The CW was pushing One Tree Hill REALLY HARD? I didn't watch it live, and I fastforwarded through the commercials, so I couldn't say.



rsadelle: (Default)

[personal profile] rsadelle 2008-11-22 09:22 pm (UTC)(link)
It makes it a little harder for the audience to judge him for breaking if we can't even stand to *watch* a torture scene for a couple minutes.

Huh. You've got me halfway convinced with this. Although: 1. It was both the torture and the nudity that made it so gratuitous to me. Dean in hell was clothed. 2. I'm not sure the audience would judge him for breaking. I thought the whole thing was very much set up so that we don't.

The sex scene didn't make me cringe, but the one thing, cinematically, that bugged me more than usual, was when he was on top and then she was on top, and it was just a quick cut, no start to the movement, no panning somewhere else and then panning back. It was too sudden.

Huh. I'll have to rewatch what Anna says, too. I took away the impression that angels falling become human, because that was what she seemed to so desperately want. She's an interesting counterpoint to a traditional Lucifer refuses to bow down to humans and so gets thrown out of heaven story - she's not bowing down, really, but she's envious. (Although how does that work if you don't have emotions?)

Association from vengeful angels to a story from my past: in my Intro to New Testament Lit class in college, we talked about how Jesus is more human (than what, I don't remember) in the book of Mark because he shows emotion. But he's generally angry in the book of Mark, which to me was more like the Old Testament God. I remember the TA for that class not liking my reaction piece (half-page thing) about it.

I stopped for the OTH commercial because it was at the end of a commercial break, plus the CW logo had something like "New OTH Sunday" over it the whole show, plus the voiceover over the credits was talking about OTH. Maybe they always do this and I just didn't notice.

oops

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2008-11-22 05:26 am (UTC)(link)
Rereading this, I think I misread what you meant here: Dean confusing porn with real life: hilarious. Also, hilarious in the way it echoes my irritation with CW sex scenes because I've seen too much porn.

You meant porn does certain things well that the CW does badly, didn't you? That'll teach me to try to squeeze out quick comment replies between meetings! I totally agree with you that the CW uses bad sex cliches all the time--like women always having their bras on. (PLEASE! Can't you just film from the back so it looks like she actually got naked)
rsadelle: (Default)

Re: oops

[personal profile] rsadelle 2008-11-22 09:24 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, in as much as you can say porn does anything well. I'm used to sex scenes where people are actually naked and actually touching each other instead of this filming around the edges and carefully choreographing it to show enough of a suggestion without showing too much.

Also, your icon is hilarious.
ext_1310: (looking for what's next)

[identity profile] musesfool.livejournal.com 2008-11-22 12:42 am (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I--I never really expected them to literally go for Michael v. Lucifer, but it does seem way more of a possibility now than before this season started. Heh.

I also think they are drawing heavily not only from Sandman, but from the spin-off, Lucifer, insofar as the angels being just as dangerous/short-sighted as the demons, and that God has a plan he's not shared with them, so they don't really know what they're doing.

Also, I thought the sex scene was sweet, and Dean took his shirt (and the amulet) off, so I am A-OK with that. I think Dean probably needed that kind of compassion more than he needed wall-slamming or raunchy goodness, you know?

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2008-11-22 05:22 am (UTC)(link)
I also think they are drawing heavily not only from Sandman, but from the spin-off, Lucifer, insofar as the angels being just as dangerous/short-sighted as the demons, and that God has a plan he's not shared with them, so they don't really know what they're doing.

I highly approve of this plotline, though I must confess my entire knowledge of Sandman is derived from a number of crossover fics I have read (some probably by you!), and all I know about Lucifer I got from wikipedia.

I think Dean probably needed that kind of compassion more than he needed wall-slamming or raunchy goodness, you know?

Definitely. He is clearly not in a good place right now.

ext_1310: (death)

[identity profile] musesfool.livejournal.com 2008-11-23 06:08 pm (UTC)(link)
I highly recommend Sandman. The first volume is somewhat slow-going (unless you are really into gory horror), but in the last section, Death shows up and things take off. And Lucifer is pretty fantastic, as well, as a meditation on free will, power, and responsibility.

Definitely. He is clearly not in a good place right now.

Yeah, I'm not sure why people expected some kind of raunchy fun sex when both of them were feeling lost and fragile, and also, he knows where he's been and what he's done, and she's a freaking angel.
rsadelle: (Default)

[personal profile] rsadelle 2008-11-22 09:11 pm (UTC)(link)
I was curious about him taking off the amulet. It seemed weird.
ext_1310: (at the crossroads)

[identity profile] musesfool.livejournal.com 2008-11-23 05:48 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, I don't know. He wore it with Cassie. But apparently Sam took it off too with Ruby, so.
rsadelle: (Default)

[personal profile] rsadelle 2008-11-24 04:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Huh. I didn't notice Sam taking it off with Ruby, but if he did, then it makes much more sense for Dean to take it off with Anna, both because of the parallels and because of what it hints about the amulet.
ext_1310: (til i wake your ghost)

[identity profile] musesfool.livejournal.com 2008-11-26 05:00 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, we didn't see him take it off, but he didn't have it on, and since we know he was wearing it while Dean was gone... (They probably just forgot to have him wear it, but still, it makes it an interesting parallel.)

[identity profile] jude-judith82.livejournal.com 2008-11-29 12:50 am (UTC)(link)
Just got around to reading this. I like you am really interested in the theology aspect of the show. This show actually got me talking about theology with my mom after a long time of not discussing it since our views differ. The whole "el" thing and how that means God and all that so if you want to write more about this I'd be more than happy to read. :-)

Uriel, who continuously pisses me off but is nevertheless clearly badass.

I can't stand him but you have to give credit when due.

but at heart he's all schmoopy and romantic when he has sex, while well-mannered Sam is an animal in bed.

Oh my god just yes. I kept annoying my sister with this before this episode and now she can't take it anymore LOL.

Dean's confession. *OH MY HEART* Dean, you held out as long as you had been alive as a human without breaking--no one could have expected more from you (except yourself), but oh GOD. No wonder you feel unworthy. Oh, DEAN.


Killed me. I'm still thinking about it.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2008-12-01 11:41 pm (UTC)(link)
I still feel so bad for Dean, because breaking and torturing other people has got to be the worst sin ever in his own mind. How can he ever forgive himself for that? What could he possible do to make up for ten years of torturing people?

(This is another one of those plot points that convinces me that Kripke is planning to have them both die heroic deaths at the end of the series, because there is no happily-ever-after for them. WAHHHH.)