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Supernatural
Just a few quick reactions
OMG, they KILLED PAMELA! YOU BASTARDS!
Other than that, I pretty much loved this episode, but that's a pretty big "other than that." I really liked that they brought Tessa back, though I have to say, the cryptic about the afterlife (or outright suggestion that there is no heaven, which seemed to be implied in her speech about lies she's heard like "he's in a better place") seems kind of...dopey? ridiculous? something like that since we know that hell actually exists. Not that it's totally out of keeping with the bleak worldview of the show, especially given Tessa's strong suggestion that the angels are up to no good, but I still found myself kind of annoyed at that.
Things I liked:
1. They're not dropping the fallout from the Siren episode--and clearly Dean is not letting it go, but that makes perfect sense considering what Sam said to him. I'm glad we're seeing the effects, even though I do not like the rift and am frankly terrified about how far they're going to take it.
2. And speaking of that, wow, Sam really is on the demon express, isn't he? For me the thing that really brought it home was not the increase in his powers or Pamela's anvilicious speech to him at the end, but the fact that he blatantly lied to Cole just for expedience's sake. OUCH. Sam, I don't really agree with the angelic agenda, and I didn't really trust their warnings, but I am to say, I am starting to worry about you.
3. The two of them posing as RELIGIOUS BLOGGERS. I could not stop laughing, honestly. OMG.
4. Dean wanting people to actually get real miracles. *Squishes him* Oh, DEAN. I know to a certain extent you're projecting your own issues and wanting to be saved, but I still like the fact that you want these folks not to die.
5. The great Sam-Dean conversation about natural law and how they're breaking those laws. That was just fun.
6. Joe the Plumber--that guy was a douche. Hee!!! Though I actually liked "I'm so feeling up Demi Moore" better. And yay Dean for coming up with the astral projection idea in the first place.
7. The scene where Cole, who isn't even old enough to know who Mr. Miyagi is, got to play Mr. Miyagi to Sam and Dean, and basically beat them up a lot, was entirely made of win. Extra bonus points for Dean's scrunchy concentration face when he's trying to move things.
8. Despite my annoyance at the SPN afterdeath worldview stuff, I really loved that closing scene with Dean and Tessa and Cole, and Dean giving Cole the advice about not staying because eventually his family would be gone. (OH MY HEART) And speaking of heartbreaking, Dean basically acknowledging to Tessa that he wished he'd gone with her the first time? OUCH.
9. Castiel's sudden appearance via lightning bolt. DAMN. Talk about presence. And I loved the fact that he was being sneaky and impersonating Bobby (hah! That'll teach them not to become too reliant on Bobby's intel) because whatever Castiel tells them to do, they do the opposite. Because it's so true! And it also kind of illustrates that angels (a) can be sneaky and (b) maybe aren't the most trustworthy bunch. I really can't wait for next week's episode, actually.
10. Pam's death scene. I hate hate hate that they killed her off--I kind of agree with her anger at Bobby for ever introducing her to the Winchesters, who only brought her pain--but she still got an excellent death scene.
OMG, they KILLED PAMELA! YOU BASTARDS!
Other than that, I pretty much loved this episode, but that's a pretty big "other than that." I really liked that they brought Tessa back, though I have to say, the cryptic about the afterlife (or outright suggestion that there is no heaven, which seemed to be implied in her speech about lies she's heard like "he's in a better place") seems kind of...dopey? ridiculous? something like that since we know that hell actually exists. Not that it's totally out of keeping with the bleak worldview of the show, especially given Tessa's strong suggestion that the angels are up to no good, but I still found myself kind of annoyed at that.
Things I liked:
1. They're not dropping the fallout from the Siren episode--and clearly Dean is not letting it go, but that makes perfect sense considering what Sam said to him. I'm glad we're seeing the effects, even though I do not like the rift and am frankly terrified about how far they're going to take it.
2. And speaking of that, wow, Sam really is on the demon express, isn't he? For me the thing that really brought it home was not the increase in his powers or Pamela's anvilicious speech to him at the end, but the fact that he blatantly lied to Cole just for expedience's sake. OUCH. Sam, I don't really agree with the angelic agenda, and I didn't really trust their warnings, but I am to say, I am starting to worry about you.
3. The two of them posing as RELIGIOUS BLOGGERS. I could not stop laughing, honestly. OMG.
4. Dean wanting people to actually get real miracles. *Squishes him* Oh, DEAN. I know to a certain extent you're projecting your own issues and wanting to be saved, but I still like the fact that you want these folks not to die.
5. The great Sam-Dean conversation about natural law and how they're breaking those laws. That was just fun.
6. Joe the Plumber--that guy was a douche. Hee!!! Though I actually liked "I'm so feeling up Demi Moore" better. And yay Dean for coming up with the astral projection idea in the first place.
7. The scene where Cole, who isn't even old enough to know who Mr. Miyagi is, got to play Mr. Miyagi to Sam and Dean, and basically beat them up a lot, was entirely made of win. Extra bonus points for Dean's scrunchy concentration face when he's trying to move things.
8. Despite my annoyance at the SPN afterdeath worldview stuff, I really loved that closing scene with Dean and Tessa and Cole, and Dean giving Cole the advice about not staying because eventually his family would be gone. (OH MY HEART) And speaking of heartbreaking, Dean basically acknowledging to Tessa that he wished he'd gone with her the first time? OUCH.
9. Castiel's sudden appearance via lightning bolt. DAMN. Talk about presence. And I loved the fact that he was being sneaky and impersonating Bobby (hah! That'll teach them not to become too reliant on Bobby's intel) because whatever Castiel tells them to do, they do the opposite. Because it's so true! And it also kind of illustrates that angels (a) can be sneaky and (b) maybe aren't the most trustworthy bunch. I really can't wait for next week's episode, actually.
10. Pam's death scene. I hate hate hate that they killed her off--I kind of agree with her anger at Bobby for ever introducing her to the Winchesters, who only brought her pain--but she still got an excellent death scene.
no subject
It only seems ridiculous if you take a VERY narrow view of Christian bliefs and apply them generically across the board. There is a very large population of Christians that do not believe that Heaven exists as an after life, rather that the whole point of Jesus and his resurrection (as well as that of Lazarus) was to show that man would be brought back to the earth, and that death was not a threat. The concept of having an 'eternal soul' that spirits off somewhere better is definitely not generic to Christians (just ask any Jehovah's Witness) and the Jews definitely aren't waiting for Heaven, but to re-inherit the earth. In light of that, I certainly would say Tess knew what she was talking about.
I'm seriously hoping that this whole thing boils down to heaven and hell totally having their own agenda and Sam and Dean are nothing but Pawns to both - and that they figure this out and go their own way. That's probably the only thing that could save the myth arch for me.
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I concur. Tessa's statement about the angels was reassuring in this way. I grasp for every straw I can.
It seems clear that hell is not where human souls are supposed to go after death - neither are they supposed to remain on earth as ghosts - but that does not mean that they are supposed to go to heaven (whatever such a place might be - here seemingly the place where angels live, and not necessarily all that nice a place) or that they can. They could go somewhere else. They could be destroyed. They could be reincarnated. They could fade back into the oneness of the universe in a sense analogous to the molecules of the body re-entering the shuffle of the world. They could achieve moksha or nirvana. They could become reapers or something. There are many options.
None of the angels has said even a peep about humans going to heaven after death, either.
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Really? Because I'm not sure that's entirely clear at all. We know that ghosts are an aberration because they cause trouble and because there are reapers to try to prevent them, but the existence of thousands of demons who used to be human in this universe seems to bely the first part of that argument.
Of course you are correct that there are many other afterlife options than the traditional Christian one--but my reading of what Tessa said to Dean at the end was as a statement contra the hope of *any* kind of better afterlife (and moksha, nirvana, and even most conventional forms of reincarnation seem life a better afterlife, to me) when she said things like "he's in a better place" are all lies. It's not so much the specific denial of a Christian heaven that bothered me about that; it was the denial of *hope.*
no subject
I had and have a HUGE problem with this 'oh so cool' idea from Ben E from the get go. It's just ridiculous to believe that Humans turn into demons, and there is zero lore to back up any of it. It's like he came up with it to serve a story line they wanted to pursue (mainly St. Ruby and angsty!Dean) without ever really understanding the idiocy of the statement/premise.
Tessa may very well not believe or be capable of understanding a world where death doesn't exist and I could get her misinterpreting death as the end of the line because she has no experience of anything else.
no subject
Yeah, the humans-into-demons thing seems something new, but I'm not sure I agree it's idiotic. It does fit a recurrent theme of the show, which is that the worst thing that can happen to a hunter is to become that which s/he hunts.
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I might be perverse, but the existence of evil without good in the SPN universe has long been one of the most fascinating things about it to me. I think that's why it's actually false to apply the term 'evil' to most of the things in the show, just as it's false to call an earthquake evil, or a disease evil, or time evil, or death evil. An inhuman, amoral universe is not the same as an evil one. Even a bleak universe is not the same as an evil one. And I think hope can be found in many vectors even if it seems to be cut off in others.
Sam and Dean objectively know far more about what happens after death than most people in their universe, but they still don't know the whole truth. I took Tessa's statement as more saying that no one knows what they're talking about than as outright telling Dean that it's horrible to be dead, because as death herself she doesn't really seem to be spouting anti-death propaganda. If anything there's been a lot of 'death as relief' in recent episodes. (At least, for Sam and Dean.)
I don't know, it probably all comes down to relative levels, since it's still a much more positive portrayal of death than my own opinion is.
And since I'm just so relieved now by every indication of the non-existence of an omnipotent Christian God in the show that I'd take almost any other worldview over it in the story.
no subject
I guess we don't know enough about who the human souls are in hell to really be able to answer anything definitely. It seems unlikely to me that *everyone* in hell made a deal, though. There only seems to be one crossroad demon at a time, for example.
I used to think what I wanted most about SPN mythology was that it not be Christian, but it turns out that more than anything else I want it to be somehow coherent.
no subject
And YES! The Angels are being very closed mouthed about what happens after death, and considering the dire circumstances I find that very telling that they aren't offering any kind of soothing answers.
no subject
Yeah, one could have expected Great Pumpkin to go more like this:
Angels: We will destroy the city.
S&D: But that's killing lots of people and that's bad!
Angels: No, it's all good. They will be with God in Heaven. *sparkly loving arms*
Instead it's:
Angels: STFU, dirty humans.
no subject
Though --theological debates aside--my real point is that the SPN writers, in their attempt to not pin the show to a specific religious perspective (which I find laudable) seem to manage to consistently choose theological positions that privilege the existence of supernatural evil over good (which I find frustrating). That was the point I didn't do a very good job articulating last night.
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In the beginning SPN did a much better job of remaining in lore and didn't box itself into anyone religious ideology. They screwed that up quite a bit with S3 and B.E.'s oh so cool ideas that weren't well thought out and retconned quite a bit of what had already been established in the previous 2 years. Now they've further boxed themselves in with the whole Heaven/Hell thing and I'm just hoping that last nights episode was a back door out for them - i.e. Sam and Dean say fuck off to everyone and go their own way.
no subject
Similarly, the life-force does not take on any of the characteristics of the creatures it animates. It has no personality and no thinking ability. Humans and animals "have but one spirit." (Ecclesiastes 3:19) When a person dies, therefore, his spirit does not go on existing in another realm as a spirit creature.
What, then, is the condition of the dead? And what happens to the spirit when a person dies? (...)
So when Jehovah God said that Adam would "return to the ground," he meant that Adam would die and return to the elements in the ground. Adam would not cross over to the spirit realm. At death Adam would once again be nonexistent. His punishment was death—absence of life—not a transfer to another realm.—Romans 6:23.
What about others who have died? The condition of the dead is made clear at Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, where we read: "The dead know nothing . . . There is no pursuit, no plan, no knowledge or intelligence, within the grave." (Moffatt) Death, therefore, is a state of nonexistence. The psalmist wrote that when a person dies, "his spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish."—Psalm 146:4. Clearly, the dead do not exist. They cannot know anything. They cannot see you, hear you, or talk to you. They can neither help you nor harm you.
...
The Bible states that when a person dies, "the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7) Does this mean that a spirit entity literally travels through space into God's presence? Not at all! ...at death no actual movement from the earth to the heavenly realm occurs when the spirit "returns" to God. Once the life-force is gone from a person, only God has the ability to restore it to him. So the spirit "returns to the true God" in the sense that any hope of future life for that person now rests entirely with God.
no subject
AHAHAHAHAHA! Dean reaching into Sam.
Sam's powers are interesting - I actually typed out "Shouldn't Sam's powers work even if he's noncorporeal? Or is it his body that's the source of them?" as I was watching, and then Alastair says he can't do it without his body. I'm so fascinated by SPN's treatment of mind/body/spirit issues. I keep wondering if Kripke has some kind of unified position on it or if they're just making it up as they go along.
"Angsty little noggin of yours" - AHAHAHAHA.
Awwww, Kim Manners tribute.
I have to admit that the weird middle of February hiatus coupled with my heart choosing other people over Dean about half the time in the 2009 Fandom Steel Cage Match March Madness, and probably also paired with the supreme awesomeness of SCC, has kind of diminished my love for the show. I'd been on board with Dean's guilt, but this time I was rolling my eyes at his "I've done terrible things" bit. I was also laughing at Jared's flaring nostrils method of acting. I don't know. Somehow I just didn't care as much about Sam and Dean and their problems.
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I am a little concerned that they are hyping up the angst too far in this show--how can either of them come back from this? But I'm still rather caught up in Sam-n-Dean angst, myself.
Also
Re: Also
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1. I loved that. Esp. since I'm still bitter they've totally refused to talk directly about Mystery Spot. I'm also SO SCARED of how far they're going with this rift. I hate it. I thought it would be so interesting dramatically. And...it is. I guess. But because of it I don't rewatch the show like I used to. With a few exceptions, once has been enough for me this season.
2. Sam lying to that boy was the creepiest thing I've seen on the show in a long time. Chills.
10. PAMELAAAAAAA. :'(
no subject
I didn't mind what Tessa said about people lying about the afterlife because I took it to mean that it's a lie to say "he's in a better place" because nobody actually *knows* that. And nobody actually knows if a person will go to heaven or hell. So in those ways, it is a lie.
I hope you're correct, because otherwise this seems like a very nihilistic universe to me.