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addendum and also last night's SPN (the Song remains the same)
I just edited that flocked post I just made to allow comments. Sorry, I wasn't *trying* to get people to PM me privately; I'm just feeling a little out-of-it (I didn't sleep much last night) and am not sure when I'll be up to replying to comments. But thanks to you all, and ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
latxcvi, thanks for the adorable puppy and the kind words.
I wasn't going to write a review of last night's SPN since I'm already feeling a little over-emotional, but I really need to stay awake at least until 8 so I don't entirely mess up my sleep cycle, so I may as well. Honestly I think this episode is one of my favorites ever; definitely my favorite this season.
Let me start out with one minor irritation I had with the episode
If we are assuming the literal existence of Cain and Abel, then aren't all humans related to them? Ok, actually, the Bible doesn't report Abel having any children before Cain killed him, and I suppose everyone else could come through Seth, but seriously. Why can angels only inhabit the descendants of the first murderer? (Oh, wait. Why am I applying earth logic/standard theology to SPN again? Silly, silly me).
Then on to things that apparently annoyed an awful lot of people but didn't actually annoy me that much
1. The depiction of Anna and Anna's death. I actually thought that from within Anna's perspective, there was a fair bit of logic to what she was doing. I mean, kill Sam, prevent the apocalypse--even Sam expressed willingness to support that plan, in asking Castiel if it would really work with that hopeful expression on his face. And both Sam and Dean were onboard with never being born. Really, I think, the only reason they were trying to stop her is that family comes first for them, and they needed to protect their mom and dad.
Of course, why Anna couldn't have just made Mary infertile is another question. (And when the boys were telling their Mom to leave John, I was banging my head against the wall. How about a hysterectomy? A lot easier, and considering Dean knew Mary was willing to sell her children's future to save John's life, a lot more practical a plan.)
Still, like I said, from one POV Anna was sympathetic--even if she was being heaven's agent. I couldn't decide if she really had been brainwashed in heaven, and then Michael double-crossed her (which really sucks, if true) or if she had authentically escaped, though I lean toward the latter just because the angels aren't trying to prevent the apocalypse, they're just trying to win it. But regardless, I think the goal of preventing Lucifer from destroying the world is a good one, even if I disagree with her methods.
And I don't necessarily see her death as final, which is why it didn't really upset me. I mean, Castiel was resurrected, so there's nothing to say Anna couldn't be, too. Or they could do another time-shift episode and she could reappear like Uriel.
2. I saw several complaints about Uriel's vessel, but I don't really see what the issue is. I mean, it's been established that angels have "true" vessels that work better than other ones, so it makes sense to me that Uriel would stay with the same vessel as much as possible--but angels weren't constantly on earth in the 1970s--that's also been established. So when he's not wearing his vessel the guy ages. And yeah, I liked Robert Wisdom a lot, but I'm not going to complain that they cast a hot young guy instead--maybe RW wasn't available, since imdb tells me he's in another TV show.
Then we move on to things I loved SO VERY MUCH WORDS CANNOT EXPRESS MY LOVE
1. Young Mary and John! So gorgeous, so in love, so doomed! If I were in control of the universe there would be an entirely John and Mary spinoff, except that Michael wouldn't have erased their memories and they would be hunters, sort of in the fashion of Straight on til Morning. I really love Amy Gumenick and Matt Cohen.
2. SAM!!! Getting completely verklempt at finally getting to see his mother, so verklempt he was actually inappropriate in that adorably awkward way. And oh my GOD, his conversation with John had me a completely sobbing wreck. Seriously, just thinking about it makes me tear up. First we got to see John saying the things that just about every fan of the show has thought wrt John Winchester's parenting style, and then we had Sam actually defending his dad. Oh my heart. And of course, now he completely understands his dad because he's actually been through the same kind of traumas his dad has (maybe worse) and understands on a visceral level how that changes people.
And for Sam, who spent his whole life resenting his dad, and who had his dad die on him in the middle of another fight, to get to say all those things to John---*wibbles* As far as I'm concerned that's the best bit of emotional payoff this show has EVER done.
3. DEAN! Oh, that conversation with Mary where he's proving he's her son with tomato rice soup and Hey Jude, and Mary's despair that they ended up hunters after all, and all their advice to her to try to prevent her death--*flaily hands* I can't even express how moving I found that whole scene. Though it has strong competition with Dean teaching his dad the sigil, and John Winchester showing signs of being the John Winchester we all know and love, and Dean saying that John reminded him of his dad. Oh, Please please please please let this episode spawn a lot of AUs where John and Mary get to remember and it somehow produces a conversation between adult Dean and John later, with John remembering it was actually his sons that got him into hunting.
3. Castiel! I'm so glad to hear you consider Sam your friend, enough so that you'll kill one of your oldest companions to protect him. That's hardcore. Though honestly I am wondering if Sera Gamble is lurking on![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
deancastiel reading Caswhump! stories, because all those nosebleeds and collapses sound eerily familiar to me.
4. Michael! Ok, I have to say, I was disappointed that you turn out to be just as much of a dick as Lucifer is. I was really hoping that some angel besides Castiel-the-fading would hop onto Team FreeWill, and since this episode made it clear it wasn't going to be Anna, I had hopes for you.
Still and all, Matt Cohen did a kickass job with you (and how cool is it that John Winchester has been a vessel for both a demon and an angel? I bet there aren't many humans who've been both), and the parallels between you and Lucifer (especially both of your absolute conviction that destiny can't be stopped) are VERY interesting. And I can't wait until Dean and Sam pwn your asses. Which better be what is happening this season, or I will be very annoyed.
latxcvi, thanks for the adorable puppy and the kind words.I wasn't going to write a review of last night's SPN since I'm already feeling a little over-emotional, but I really need to stay awake at least until 8 so I don't entirely mess up my sleep cycle, so I may as well. Honestly I think this episode is one of my favorites ever; definitely my favorite this season.
Let me start out with one minor irritation I had with the episode
If we are assuming the literal existence of Cain and Abel, then aren't all humans related to them? Ok, actually, the Bible doesn't report Abel having any children before Cain killed him, and I suppose everyone else could come through Seth, but seriously. Why can angels only inhabit the descendants of the first murderer? (Oh, wait. Why am I applying earth logic/standard theology to SPN again? Silly, silly me).
Then on to things that apparently annoyed an awful lot of people but didn't actually annoy me that much
1. The depiction of Anna and Anna's death. I actually thought that from within Anna's perspective, there was a fair bit of logic to what she was doing. I mean, kill Sam, prevent the apocalypse--even Sam expressed willingness to support that plan, in asking Castiel if it would really work with that hopeful expression on his face. And both Sam and Dean were onboard with never being born. Really, I think, the only reason they were trying to stop her is that family comes first for them, and they needed to protect their mom and dad.
Of course, why Anna couldn't have just made Mary infertile is another question. (And when the boys were telling their Mom to leave John, I was banging my head against the wall. How about a hysterectomy? A lot easier, and considering Dean knew Mary was willing to sell her children's future to save John's life, a lot more practical a plan.)
Still, like I said, from one POV Anna was sympathetic--even if she was being heaven's agent. I couldn't decide if she really had been brainwashed in heaven, and then Michael double-crossed her (which really sucks, if true) or if she had authentically escaped, though I lean toward the latter just because the angels aren't trying to prevent the apocalypse, they're just trying to win it. But regardless, I think the goal of preventing Lucifer from destroying the world is a good one, even if I disagree with her methods.
And I don't necessarily see her death as final, which is why it didn't really upset me. I mean, Castiel was resurrected, so there's nothing to say Anna couldn't be, too. Or they could do another time-shift episode and she could reappear like Uriel.
2. I saw several complaints about Uriel's vessel, but I don't really see what the issue is. I mean, it's been established that angels have "true" vessels that work better than other ones, so it makes sense to me that Uriel would stay with the same vessel as much as possible--but angels weren't constantly on earth in the 1970s--that's also been established. So when he's not wearing his vessel the guy ages. And yeah, I liked Robert Wisdom a lot, but I'm not going to complain that they cast a hot young guy instead--maybe RW wasn't available, since imdb tells me he's in another TV show.
Then we move on to things I loved SO VERY MUCH WORDS CANNOT EXPRESS MY LOVE
1. Young Mary and John! So gorgeous, so in love, so doomed! If I were in control of the universe there would be an entirely John and Mary spinoff, except that Michael wouldn't have erased their memories and they would be hunters, sort of in the fashion of Straight on til Morning. I really love Amy Gumenick and Matt Cohen.
2. SAM!!! Getting completely verklempt at finally getting to see his mother, so verklempt he was actually inappropriate in that adorably awkward way. And oh my GOD, his conversation with John had me a completely sobbing wreck. Seriously, just thinking about it makes me tear up. First we got to see John saying the things that just about every fan of the show has thought wrt John Winchester's parenting style, and then we had Sam actually defending his dad. Oh my heart. And of course, now he completely understands his dad because he's actually been through the same kind of traumas his dad has (maybe worse) and understands on a visceral level how that changes people.
And for Sam, who spent his whole life resenting his dad, and who had his dad die on him in the middle of another fight, to get to say all those things to John---*wibbles* As far as I'm concerned that's the best bit of emotional payoff this show has EVER done.
3. DEAN! Oh, that conversation with Mary where he's proving he's her son with tomato rice soup and Hey Jude, and Mary's despair that they ended up hunters after all, and all their advice to her to try to prevent her death--*flaily hands* I can't even express how moving I found that whole scene. Though it has strong competition with Dean teaching his dad the sigil, and John Winchester showing signs of being the John Winchester we all know and love, and Dean saying that John reminded him of his dad. Oh, Please please please please let this episode spawn a lot of AUs where John and Mary get to remember and it somehow produces a conversation between adult Dean and John later, with John remembering it was actually his sons that got him into hunting.
3. Castiel! I'm so glad to hear you consider Sam your friend, enough so that you'll kill one of your oldest companions to protect him. That's hardcore. Though honestly I am wondering if Sera Gamble is lurking on
deancastiel reading Caswhump! stories, because all those nosebleeds and collapses sound eerily familiar to me.4. Michael! Ok, I have to say, I was disappointed that you turn out to be just as much of a dick as Lucifer is. I was really hoping that some angel besides Castiel-the-fading would hop onto Team FreeWill, and since this episode made it clear it wasn't going to be Anna, I had hopes for you.
Still and all, Matt Cohen did a kickass job with you (and how cool is it that John Winchester has been a vessel for both a demon and an angel? I bet there aren't many humans who've been both), and the parallels between you and Lucifer (especially both of your absolute conviction that destiny can't be stopped) are VERY interesting. And I can't wait until Dean and Sam pwn your asses. Which better be what is happening this season, or I will be very annoyed.
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And let me add my best wishes to your family for full recoveries. I am so sorry to hear about all this. *big hugs to you*
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And I think this particular type of SPN episode--where we get emotional resolutions--is definitely my favorite kind.
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... on the Cain and Abel thing, I took it to mean that Sam = Cain; Dean = Abel. *shrug* You're right. Weak. That line of logic, uh... isn't.
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Because they’re dicks who like dicks?
But yeah: If you had a starting populating of a couple thousand, genetic lines would tend to diverge and only freakishly converge. But with a starting population of only a few, everyone’s going to have a lot of genetic similarity even if everyone bred like bunnies.
Of course, why Anna couldn't have just made Mary infertile is another question.
Infertility wouldn’t have completely worked as Mary was already pregnant with Dean so even if Sam hadn’t been born, Dean still would have had to suffer that fate. Prolly though, it wouldn’t have been as melodramatic if it this weren’t Dean’s little brother in the picture. That would be a fun AU — without the knowledge of hunting and of demons, would Dean have said “Yes” to Michael? And then that’s not discounting virgin births like Jesse from, “I Believe the Children Are Our Future.” So she pretty much had to kill Mary.
Though it has strong competition with Dean teaching his dad the sigil, and John Winchester showing signs of being the John Winchester we all know and love, and Dean saying that John reminded him of his dad.
John is John. And by that I mean, he will take everything to its logical conclusion. He could have gone into the navy or army or air force, but no, he became a marine. If you don’t know military stereotypes, they’ve got the most bad-ass reputations. John as marine was patriotism + badass and both to the extremes. And as a family man he’d be loyalty + badass, again to extremes. If being loving was what the family needed, he would be the most damned loving husband ever.
But if being a hunter was what was needed, he’d be that most obssessed and best damn hunter ever to keep his family alive. For all the talk of what a good father would have done there’s a reason why Dean and Sam are still alive while Adam from “Jump the Shark” is dead.
But you know what, it killed me to hear Sam tell John he understood it all now. *flails*
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On the infertility thing, though--Anna could easily have gone back in time a few months and not have had the problem. Or she could have made Mary miscarry and create medical complications that became severe enough that she had to have a hysterectomy. Etc. My main point was that killing her wasn't the only available option, logically. (Dramatically it's a lot more interesting, which I imagine is why they went there).
I agree with you that John already had the basic character traits that made him John Winchester, or they wouldn't have surfaced in a crisis--but he was out of the marines and living a normal life, so it was interesting to see his more badass traits emerge in the episode. (ANd I partly agree with you that his parenting methods kept Dean and Sam alive, but I expect there's a medium between them and Adam. Adam didn't even *know* about the supernatural, so he was an easy target. I think John could have raised them with the knowledge of the supernatural without moving every 4 weeks, and trained them when they were adolescents rather than kids, and still produced children who were capable of protecting themselves.)
But yeah, the fact that Sam has pretty much accepted it all as necessary... OH SAM.
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