norwich36 | Poll results

Poll results

So, judging from my poll , nearly half of you think Clark is either an incompetent lover or very, very gay, because 14 of 29 respondents said that Lana didn't have orgasms with Clark. Despite this, about half of you (I hope not the same half?) think Clark and Chloe should get together next season. That doesn't seem like a nice thing to do to Chloe!! Seriously, though, I didn't realize I had such a large Chlark contingent on my flist. (Gives me an excuse to use my Chlark icon, though).

The other half of you think Chloe should get a guest superhero of her very own to have sex with, an idea I highly approve of. I actually voted for this option, because I think Chloe is over Clark and I'd prefer that she not get sucked into another doomed romance with him, even if I do think they are cute together.

I was interested in how few people said Chloe and Lex should hook up, given that in my Lex dirty sex poll from last week, when I asked about non-Clex pairings, Chloe was the number one person people wanted Lex to have dirty, dirty sex with. (Lionel came in second, and third place went to Martha).

I was actually surprised by the high number of people--a little over a third of poll takers--who thought Martha and Lionel had an affair back in season 2. And as for whether Lex and Lana have hooked up yet, most people said no, though you were very divided as to why. Also, my flist doesn't really approve of Lexana, or at least almost half of you said it made you sick to your stomach, almost twice as many as said that Mionel made you sick to your stomach.

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Heh. We're a fickle lot.

Mionel is so dirty and intriguing that I can get behind it. Know what I'm sayin'? And he SO made her pregnant.

But the Lexana.... I got moral conflicts about that one. It's WRONG. I've got a one-track mind when it comes to Lex and Clark. Though I have been thinking of some Bex. Batman/Lex.

*g*

Well, if the Lexana were going to be a permanent thing, it would bug me, but we know it won't. In the long run, Clark and Lex will be ~~foes~~ lovers forever, and Lana will just be a footnote. Plus I'm all about someone making Lex happy, right now.

I actually can't see Martha cheating on her husband, even though the "Lionel got her pregnant" theory explains so much that's been strange about her behavior vis-a-vis Lionel.

From a story perspective, Martha's infidelity could be really interesting... I always theorize that Lionel impregnated her, but if that's the case, Martha's really good at acting not-guilty. I can't substantiate my claim with any evidence. *g*

You are not the only one with a one-track Clexy mind. And I don't mind the Bex if there is CLex in the end. Plus, IMO from a DC JLU standpoint, I think Blark (Bruce/Clark) makes more sense, cuz those two in the comics and in the animated series (it is NOT a cartoon people!) are pretty slashy.

I love Superman/Batman: Public Enemies. Awesome!

Oh, I have that entire series up to the current issue, darlin'. This series is what got me into DC comics (I was orginally a Marvel fan, but DC has taken over my life.) Talk about SLASHY! And, seriously, do not get me started on Justice League Unlimited (good thing it comes on after the kiddies go to bed).

But why would Lana keep begging Clark to fuck her if she never orgasmed with him? I know I wouldn't keep asking for more from a guy that couldn't get me off. I mean, yeah, Clark is gay, but hell, he knows how to find Lex's spot, why not Lana's? I can see him not being as into it (as is evidence by the fact that he found many excuses NOT to do her again), but Lana wouldn't notice because she's all "me, me, me, god yes, me!". Okay, now I'm just Lana bashing. Someone take away by stick. (Of course this is all because I actually like Clark in spite of what everyone else says, so I'm giving my boy some leeway.)

P.S. Lexana sucks ass. I don't even ship Chlex, but that pairing would make me far less ill.

I know I wouldn't keep asking for more from a guy that couldn't get me off

You're too self-assured to be Lana. Lana is supposed to be the Good Girl, so even when she has sex -- which she only has with her True Love -- she doesn't have it because she has any sex drive of her own, that would be *icky*. No, she has sex to prove that the guy loves her. Or because she's under the influence of drugs, alien possession, etc. *gags*

I hate this attitude, but it's extremely common, and I think that's how we're supposed to read Lana. Oh, and we're also supposed to assume that she won't orgasm (if she did such a thing) except by vaginal penetration, so of course she has to beg Clark to fuck her if she's ever going to get off at all. But I think her begging is supposed to be for "sex as a sign of Clark's Lurve", not for sex to give *her* sexual satisfaction.

I think I shall go put on my Godzilla suit and stomp around in rage, now.

Huh. Interesting. I guess I gave Lana too much credit, which is odd because I never give her any credit whatsoever.

she has sex to prove that the guy loves her. Or because she's under the influence of drugs, alien possession, etc.

There is canonical support for that in season 4, I agree, when Lana basically offers to have sex with Jason to prove her love--but I don't think that is my reading of Lana's requests for sex with Clark. It's not so much "sex=love," but "sex=intimacy/closeness." In season 5, Lana and Clark have sex when he is mortal and therefore feels he doesn't have to hide from her/ he can disclose himself to her. But then he becomes superpowered again, and withdraws from her both emotionally and physically--he won't even "seriously kiss her," as she complains in one episode.

I put that "orgasm" option in the poll as a joke, but my own explanation (as I have belatedly commented to [Bad username or site: the clexfactor @ livejournal.com] is that virginal guys don't tend to have great sexual skills, and canonically we only *see* evidence that they had sex twice. So it's possible Lana was hoping Clark's skills would improve with practice.

It's not so much "sex=love," but "sex=intimacy/closeness."

I'll buy that, but my point is that in neither case would Lana (un-mentally-altered) have sex for the sake of her own sexual satisfaction. Because she's supposed to be Pure Like That.

Or she's still pining for Chloe. I can do that.

Reposted to fix grammar, since tiredness seems to be making me lose my grip on the English language:

I think Almiles are schizophrenic about sex in the way that much of America is: using sex to sell things (like lots of nekkid Clark to improve ratings)=good; actually enjoying mutually consenting sexual exchanges for pleasure (like Lex in "Bound") =bad.

Now, however, it looks like Lana is going over to the gray side by working with Lex, so that may mean she and Lex are in fact going to get to have a lot of sex.

Sorry, I didn't realize I hadn't responded to this until today!

But why would Lana keep begging Clark to fuck her if she never orgasmed with him? I know I wouldn't keep asking for more from a guy that couldn't get me off.

Well, considering that Clark was canonically a virgin, it's safe to assume that he will get better with practice. But ONLY with practice. So my assumption would be that Lana wanted him to practice on her so his technique would improve.

Clark was a virgin?! HA! Whoever believes that is seriously whacked. I don't care what Alan Miles says, or "canon" says, Clark has had so much sex it's not even funny. Especially (or only) in his Red phases. That summer in Metropolis? Please. Clark wasn't saving himself for anyone. Clark is a big horny bastard (and I love him.) Now, when the ring came off was another story. Maybe normal-not-smoking-the-big-Red-joint Clark was a virgin, but Red!Clark? Not so much.

I'm perfectly prepared to believe that Kal had very little sex with *women*, though I think we're supposed to gather that he had a sexual encounter with whatsername, who he was going to run away with after "the best night of my life", but that it didn't include intercourse and so "didn't count" for virginity purposes. Just like all his other RedK-fueled sex. *rolls eyes right out of head*

I'm perfectly prepared to believe that Kal had very little sex with *women*,

Okay, I'll give you that. But I find it amazing that Alan Miles (and America for that matter) have no problem with a Superman that has been hooked on drugs, robbed banks, and did some general assault and battery without provocation, but he has to remain a virginal...let's think and talk about that...

Wow, interesting results! I am not surprised by the vast numbers of Chlarkers out there, though I'm not one of them. I long ago clued on to that one. Personally, I'm with you--a superhero of her own would suit Chloe better! I like independent-and-moved-on Chloe, not still-mooching-around-about-Clark Chloe. I'm a little perturbed by all the Lexana haters though. I thought Lexana was the new black a little while back in fandom? I see the tide's turned again. *sigh* Personally, I think it's rocking, and Mionel runs a close second in interest value.

The problem is that the Lana hatred remains unbelievably strong (hence my sudden desire to go around defending Lana). For example, the TWOP response to "Vessel" was to suggest that Lana actually saw what was happening to Chloe and ignored it to go to Lex (!!!!) or even if she didn't actually see Chloe, she ought to have have been searching for Chloe rather than going to Lex, and that having romantic feelings in the middle of a riot is apparently the height of self-centeredness. Or something. And those sentiments popped up a lot of places besides TWOP.

Good lord! Yes, I can't really understand the depth of Lana hatred these days. I find it hard to read as anything other that prejudice built up over years of her indeed being a very annoying character. But she's far more coherent, sympathetic, layered and interesting than ever before!

And the argument that she should have been looking for Chloe is ridiculous. I think Lana's being all sorts of generous in remaining friends with Chloe to the degree she is, given Chloe's alliance to Clark and (at best) indifference to Lex. And I'm sorry, but in a riot, I'd be looking for my loved one too--who wouldn't?!

Grr.. This is why I avoid TWOP!

I don't actually see any evidence, from Chloe or Lana's perspective, that they *are* still friends after, umm, whatever episode it was right after the kryptojunkie episode, when Chloe told off Lex and she and Lana had that fight. And that makes sense to me, really. They're still roommates, but that's about it.

I really don't understand, sometimes, why extreme attachment to one character leads to the denigration of other characters. I love Chloe, but on TWOP her defenders make me insane--if they're not attacking Lana they're attacking Lois, or still holding on the the Chloe-as-Lois theory despite all evidence to the contrary.

Well, in Vessel, Lana runs to Chloe after she sees Lex taken by the space ship--yes, it's desperation, but it highlighted to me that there is still a facade of friendship in place. Of course the substance of their relationship has been more or less completely eroded, and when Lana said 'what if he's dead', Chloe's silence felt really awful--because we know she doesn't really care and would be quite glad if he was. I guess I just feel there's been cause enough for a more overt 'falling out' between them. And Lana's being too trusting of Chloe still--leaving those Luthorcorp documents around and expecting she won't look at them. Foolish.

Yes, there is a territorialism when it comes to favourite characters which I don't understand. Personally, the more characters I enjoy watching, the better! But many people behave as if one character directly threatens another. I guess it's human, but when people argue from their emotional prejudices in a rational/analytical forum, it makes me uncomfortable. The hardcore Chlois people scare me, for example! Ah well.

Of course it's uncomfortable admitting that your favourite character isn't perfect/the most interesting at any one time--I feel Lois was wasted space in the second half of this season, and that pains me, but I just have to hope they redeem her plots a bit in S6.

I saw Lana as turning to Chloe not just as desparation but as turning to someone who in the past has been able to help with weird situations. And we haven't seen a total break between them--I think in Lana's mind that probably happens after she overhears the Clark/Chloe conversation about killing Lex.

My reading of Chloe's reactions to Lana in that initial scene are somewhat different than yours, though. I saw her silence when Lana suggested Lex might be dead as shock more than anything else. (If Chloe wanted Lex dead, or secretly wished him dead, why on earth did she save his life in "Void"? I realize that she does later say that Clark might have to kill the vessel, but that's *after* the total destruction of the world's infrastructure has started. In that scene where Clark first says he has to kill Lex, she's the one suggesting that his dad is out of line for asking him to kill anyone.)

I don't actually think Lois has been wasted space--they're clearly positioning her to be a political player next season, probably to get her more involved in the mytharc. I agree that they're doing it a little slowly, but considering how rare it is for them to set up character development, I'm not going to complain.

Yes, if I think about it further, it makes sense that Lana wouldn't want to sever all ties with Chloe unless really pushed to, because Chloe has been her confidant for so long, and she knows she's useful at solving mysteries--on a purely pragmatic level. Emotionally, of course I also understand it's hard for Lana to let go of a longterm friendship.

Hmm, you definitely have a more subtle reading of Chloe than I do! That's probably good, because I find her a bit fragmented this season--at times she spouts off about Lex being Teh Evil, at other times she's more lukewarm about him--I've ceased to have a handle on her real feelings. But you're right--so we assume that for Chloe his death would still be really awful? (just because anyone's death would be? or because she doesn't think he's the complete antichrist?)

Hee, you are more forgiving with Lois than me! I guess you're right. I HOPE you are right.

But you're right--so we assume that for Chloe his death would still be really awful? (just because anyone's death would be? or because she doesn't think he's the complete antichrist?)

Because anyone's death would be, I think. One of the things I noted in some other people's journals, though not my own Vessel review, I think, is that it's pretty clear that although the writers are doing their best to make Clark AND Chloe AND Lana AND Lex's positions all, to a certain sense, sympathetic--we're supposed to see they all have good (or at least intelligible) reasons for the choices that they're making in this episode, it is still clear that they are setting up the Chlark v. Lexana for next season. (And not just in the romantic way).

For me, then, it is significant that in this episode there is a spectrum of responses among the four. Chloe is presented as most concerned about the world (over and above her relationships with other people), which is why she is willing to consider sacrificing Lex (but not advocating it--I think on this show actually advocating murder puts you over the side to villainy, even if it's murder for a good cause). Clark is also considering that option, to save the world, but is still very motivating by concern over Lex. Lex started out as concerned about the world as a whole, as well, though he is also motivated by self-interest, especially after his transformation. And Lana isn't really concerned about the world at all, only about her significant relationships (which really has narrowed down to her relationship with Lex.)

So I think, just as Clark & Lex are mirrors of each other, in this episode (and throughout the whole season), Chloe and Lana are also mirrors of each other, each choosing one extreme or the other on the public v. private interests continuum. I think it is telling that even though Chloe has that dramatic kiss with Clark, what she *tells him* is not to worry about her but to go out and save the world without her. Lana, in contrast, wants Lex to *take her with him,* and is not particularly concerned about the general chaos of the world around her at the end of the episode. She's worried about Lex.
That's so in keeping with her iconic role as the home/the domestic/love/smalltown life/ all that stuff Clark has to leave behind (and Lex never gets to have), whereas Chloe (prefiguring Lois) is the one sending Clark out into the world/ encouraging his heroism.

Oh, an excellent piece of analysis! I like your public versus private interests continuum. I'm also much amused that Lana still stands out as the most self-interested person of all! Hee. I also love the contrast you draw between Chloe's words and Lana's. I guess Chloe's love is selfless, whereas Lana's is selfish and demanding. You are also right that it prefigures future roles. But while the show is making the line between selfless and selfish love pretty clearcut at the moment, I think the reality is more muddled. If Chloe does have romantic feelings for Clark, will that cause conflict eventually? Surely, even though she's been so heavily idealised this last season, she's still human and will want something to happen/some return on her emotional investment? Although I can definitely see Chloe hiding it and feeling guilty about those feelings. Likewise, while Lana is superficially completely self-serving, she does have a moral core, and I can't see her standing by while Zod commits mass murder, for example.

In a sense, Lois IS the only one in the future who will be able to balance this continuum--to be selfish (and honest) enough to say, no damn it, you BE here at this time, but also to be selfless enough to love a hero and know that that means danger and absence. Of course we aren't going to see that in the Smallville universe--but I hope SV will explore the problems with both extremes.

I was actually trying to word it in such a way as to NOT say Lana is selfish, because I don't think we're supposed to see her that way. She's the emblem of the traditional feminine, and all that represents, in terms of love, private space, domesticity, etc., so her loyalties fall that way. (It's actually kind of interesting, because she's taken on more of that role, albeit with Lex, just at the time in the show when the other emblem of the traditional feminine--Martha--has left the private sphere of the home and moved into the public in a big way. And considering that this move has made her open to potential corruption by Lionel...well, if I get started on the gender politics of this show I'll never stop.)

I also wouldn't say, precisely, that Chloe's role is more *selfless* than Lana's. If she ever thought she had a hope with Clark, things might look a lot different. I actually doubt whether the show is going to go in a Chlark-ish direction, despite the kiss, and that could mean that Chloe could turn bitter at some point, or form yet another destabilizing relationship with a man who turns out to be evil. (Again I could go on and on about the gender politics of this show, but it is like beating your head against a brick wall, so I probably won't go there).

You're right, of course, that Lois in the future is going to combine the best attributes of both Chloe and Lana, since those two characters were originally envisioned as a split between the two sides of Lois. (I just hope they actually *develop* this in canonical Lois).

Hee, yeah Smallville gender politics... scary world! I hadn't really thought about the fact that Lana is becoming more domestic at the time that Martha is moving out of the domestic sphere. I wonder if that will continue in S6. I do hope there's not a terrible moment when Martha has to give up her political career because it's just too dangerous. *shudder*

So you don't think they'll Chlark it? I thought it might be a popular option at least briefly. Though I'm really baffled about where they can take Chloe's character, other than repeating the same old patterns.

Before I can answer any hypothetical questions about the future of the show, I must ask whether you consider interviews with the producers about the potential direction of the show in season 6 to be spoilery or not, since I have read them and suspect any speculation on my part will be colored by them.

Hmm... well, I haven't read them myself, but I think I'm in an ok enough about hearing what they said. As long as it doesn't include concrete descriptions of events, character death, etc! I'm intrigued..., and while I'm asking, when does the next season begin?

Ok, well, one of the producers was asked directly about Chlark and although he didn't completely dismiss the possibility, he compared it to that episode of MASH where Hawkeye and Margaret Houlihan are trapped under fire and they end up kissing (but nothing ever comes of it, being the subtext). Also in that interview, btw, was the exciting news that the rise of villain!Lex is going to be a major theme of next season, and they're going to explore the corruption of the good through the Lexana and Mionel relationships.

Ohh... interesting! I'd like to read it. I will get round to it, I'm sure. I'm definitely excited by the other news. For me, I'm indifferent about the Chlark comment--but I know it must have upset many a fan. For me, if anything, I'd prefer them to avoid it so they could give Chloe a non-Clark-centric plot or romance instead... I shipped 'em way back in high school, but not any more.

So, I've been thinking about this whole cliffhanger/Zod business... and there's going to be a massive reset button at some stage, isn't there? Is Lex going to remember anything?

*imagines*
Lex: So, Clark... what exactly happened during the six weeks I can't remember.
Clark: Um, you were in Belle Reve?
Lex: *blank stares* Not those six weeks--the other, MORE RECENT ones.
Clark: Ah... you got with Lana? *fake frown*
Lex: Yes, yes. And?
Clark: Um... school project?
Lex: *waves green K around*
Clark: *writhing* Ok, ok, I'll tell you.
Lex: Good! So?
Clark: You tried to take over the world and destroy me and everything I cared about.
Lex: Stop lying to me!
Clark: *in agony* I'm not! You really did!
Lex: *drops green K* Oh. ... Well, I suppose that's alright then. *g* Anything else I should know about? You didn't turn out to be an alien, did you?
Clark: *glares*
Lex: Riiiiiight. Silly me.

Oh, and I keep forgetting! http://www.bsg-caps.com/ for bsg screencaps!

Thanks for the screencap site!

Your prediction for the Lex-Clark conversation is funny--and probably all too true, alas. I'm pretty sure they are going to press the reset button. But I expect the Lexana to continue, because Lana will tell him what happened (as far as she understands it), even if Clark doesn't.

I'm pretty sure all the relevant interviews with producers are linked in today's

sv_ledger

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reposted to fix many dumb grammatical mistakes

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