norwich36 | SV "Vessel"

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SV "Vessel"

Hmmm. I'm not sure *what* I think.

Ok, to start with the THINGS THAT FILLED ME WITH MURDEROUS RAGE:

If we are really supposed to think that it is Lionel spouting platitudes about the darkness inside of Lex, both to Lex and to Clark--well, fuck. That made me mad enough to wish that Lionel was actually dead after Lex threw him against the car--and as you all know, I love me some Magnificent Bastard. But NOT self-righteous sanctimonious bastard, thank you very much. (And even though it would have been anticlimactic, how funny would it have been after all the sturm-and-drang "you will kill your father" foreshadowing, if Lionel had died after Lex threw him, so it all would have been an accident?)

However, I have a slight theory--I need to see if it's supported on rewatching--that it wasn't actually Lionel during those scenes, it was Fine-onel, since we now know that he can take other people's forms, and we know he is an expert at manipulating Clark. Given that a Fine was flying Martha's plane, and given how plan A--making Clark kill (presumably the real) Lionel last week didn't work, Fine now realizes the best way to get Clark NOT to kill Lex is try to convince him TO kill him. Which means it wasn't Lionel being all sanctimonious, it was Fine. Did anyone else have this theory?

THINGS THAT MADE ME GO WTF:

Why the hell is Chloe running around randomly in traffic, other than to deliberately put her in danger? And who the hell is going to save the day with Clark trapped in the Phantom Zone, Lana? Everybody else seems to be down for the count.

THINGS THAT MADE ME SQUEE LIKE A CRAZY FANGIRL:

Um, pretty much everything else? Starting with the cool "alien invasion" spaceship shadows/horse spooking, followed by Lana and Lex waking up together (Hooboy!!!), and then Lex getting possessed and taking off for the field, and Lana chasing after him in a wonderful reversal of that scene in "Reckoning".

And speaking of echoing pivotal series scenes, that shot of Lex trembling in the field was a *wonderful* echo of his scene in the cornfield in the Pilot. That scene where Lex got sucked into the spaceship was awesome, and Lana's reaction convinced me more than anything else so far that she really loves him. And by the way, KK was REALLY on her A game tonight. I've never seen her do a better acting job--especially this scene, and the scene where Lex returns and tells her about his powers, and her confrontation with Clark--she was fantastic in all of those scenes. Oh, and the scene with Chloe, too, where she blames herself for Lex getting involved. I'm telling you, I could get really invested in Lexana--it's giving us the most interesting Lana of the entire series. I love how Lana's reactions to the alien kidnapping and to Lex's return show *both* her extreme fear of the aliens *and* her loyalty and willing to embrace someone she loves as long as he is honest with her.

Oh, and that scene with Clark? Amazing. Just amazing. Speaking of rifts, talk about a really good reason for a Clana rift: he really did owe it to her to tell her what was happening with Lex. This wasn't just his secret now, it affected everyone. And I'm very glad that the secret that turned her away from him wasn't *his* secret but information about Lex. That whole scene was just marvellous.

What does everyone else think, concerning when exactly Zod was completely controlling Lex? Because when Lex says to Lana "How could I keep something like this from the person I care about most," it was of course the perfect Lexian thing to say to her, whether it was sincere or manipulation--but it also felt a little fake to me, and I did wonder if Zod was already influencing him then. What the hell Zod would want with Lana, I have *no* idea. But he didn't reveal that he wasn't Lex on the roof, so I guess he does want her for something.

Part of the reason I want to know what people think about when Zod was in control of Lex is that it affects how I read the Lex/Clark confrontation scene. That was wonderful, and I loved that Lex finally got to say onscreen what people have been writing in fanfic for years--I'm just not sure he was completely in the driver's seat, even before he got zapped.

And obviously I have no fears that Lex, Lois, or Martha are really dead. And I'm pretty sure Chloe won't die this particular way. But I really do wonder how the hell they're going to get out of this next season!

Oh, and I forgot to mention. Chlark kiss! Actually pretty hot! Next season really does look like it's going to be Chlark v. Lexana. That should be fun!

Wow, I can't wait to rewatch this, but first I'm going to go read what everyone else thought.

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I too wondered wtf Chloe was doing wandering in traffic...I'd have locked myself into some room at the DP and stayed put til Clark got back or the world didn't end.

Seriously! Where could she have been going, anyway?

What does everyone else think, concerning when exactly Zod was completely controlling Lex?

I think it's clear that Zod *isn't* controlling Lex until the actual download of Zod's spirit via the opening of the portal (otherwise, there's no reason to bother with opening the portal in the first place if Zod could just exert influence once Lex had superpowers). I have no trouble believing that being made into the physical equivalent of a god, and knowing that he couldn't be hurt by Clark throwing a punch at him, would absolutely make Lex exude the utter confidence he did in the first part of the barn scene. And telling Lana the truth is absolutely Lexian because it's the biggest thing that's ever happened to him, it's not the kind of thing he'd just share with everyone, but he trusted her enough to tell her right away and it *totally bound her to him*. Even though she was scared, the minute he told her the truth, you could see her deciding she was willing to brave whatever was coming their way.

I have no trouble with Lex sounding a little off before being downloaded with Zod. He'd been turned into a god. That's going to be disconcerting, and even for someone with Lex's resilience, it would take a bit to regain his equilibrium (and Zod!Lex wouldn't have cared about knocking Lionel into that car, either).

You and I both caught the echo of the Lionel and wee!Lex scene from the pilot; that was one of my favorite moments in Vessel. And I thought MR and KK were both *superb* throughout the episode.

More later, after a re-watch ...

I think it's clear that Zod *isn't* controlling Lex until the actual download of Zod's spirit via the opening of the portal (otherwise, there's no reason to bother with opening the portal in the first place if Zod could just exert influence once Lex had superpowers).

During the Lexana scene I wasn't sure, then after the actual "downloading Zod" scene I agreed with you--I guess I'm just confused as to why on earth Zod would have gone to meet Lana on the rooftop of Luthorcorp. That's what made me wonder, well, that and Lex's earlier weirdness, but you're right, that could just be coming to terms with his powers.

Oh, yeah, I just remembered the other thing that made me think Lex was being somewhat controlled by Zod: where was he going after he met Lana? And why did he set up that meeting on the roof of Luthercorp?

Oh, I think he was going to confront Clark (I have no idea why it took him all day, but I also don't know why these people are always driving from Smallville to Metropolis or vice versa to tell each other stuff they could tell each other on the *cell phones we know they all have*, either). And I think he believed there was a possibility Clark would kill him (after all, he just knows he has powers; he may not realize they pretty much make him *complete* invulnerable), which is why he took the time to tell Lana that he loved her (another visual echo -- it's the same way he grabbed her face in Commencement, only her reaction is completely different from what it was in that episode).

I took the meeting on the roof of Luthor Corp as Lex doing his usual big, grand, romantic gesture. And it is romantic: "If you decide to be with me, then join me at the top of the tallest building in Metropolis and look out over all that we'll survey together one day" or something along those lines. Also, he knew he'd just dropped something huge on her and unlike some people, who think a marriage proposal is the way to gloss over all the pesky implications of learning news that big about one's paramour, Lex recognized that Lana needed time to process and decide what she wanted to do. Meta-textually, I took it as a screenwriters' shout-out to "An Affair to Remember", so it didn't seem weird or odd to me but rather, like I said, romantic (what was weird was that he didn't give her a specific time, but this *is* SV we're talking about).

I took the meeting on the roof of Luthor Corp as Lex doing his usual big, grand, romantic gesture. And it is romantic: "If you decide to be with me, then join me at the top of the tallest building in Metropolis and look out over all that we'll survey together one day" or something along those lines.

I can totally buy Lex making a grand gesture, it just seems *odd* the way everyone is acting like Metropolis is two blocks away from SV. And since Brainiac drove Lex into that field, somehow, I wondered if he was also driving Lex to do something beyond just confronting Clark.

Also, he knew he'd just dropped something huge on her and unlike some people, who think a marriage proposal is the way to gloss over all the pesky implications of learning news that big about one's paramour, Lex recognized that Lana needed time to process and decide what she wanted to do.

Well, to be fair, Clark *did* tell Lana not to give him an answer right at that moment. (But the conscious paralleling of those two events actually explains the top-of-Luthercorp-tower thing in a non-"Affair to Remember" way--clearly Lana has to give her answer to both men in their iconic space. And Clark's iconic space is still the Kent home, but Lex's is no longer the mansion, it's really Luthercorp.)

but I also don't know why these people are always driving from Smallville to Metropolis or vice versa to tell each other stuff they could tell each other on the *cell phones we know they all have*, either
*giggle* And there we have it. The neverending mysteries of the Smallville universe! Of course quite often they combine driving and cellphones. Though that usually ends badly...

And actually, yes, I found Lex's 'meet me on the rooftop' totally swoon-worthy, so I must be more of a romantic than I thought.

i did watch this one! it was rather thrilling, really. but i was troubled by what lex said to clark in the barn, before the download, how all he had ever really wanted was the things clark had: a family, a small life, and a *devoted girlfriend*. clark didn't have lana until a long time after lex started giving him those love-struck looks in season one. i wondered if lex had just changed the story in his own head, to protect his heart.

i wondered if lex had just changed the story in his own head, to protect his heart.

Well, of course! But honestly, even without the Clexy reading of that scene, I think what Lex really wanted about Clark in s1 was his parents. The Lana thing is pure retcon. With the Clexy reading--well, he wanted to be Clark in the way that Tina Greer wanted to be Lana in s1: as part of repressed homosexual longings she was unable to articulate yet!

>I think what Lex really wanted about Clark in s1 was his parents.

oh yes. that longing look on his face every time he'd watch them hug and dote on clark -- it was heart-breaking to me.

or >he wanted to be Clark in the way that Tina Greer wanted to be Lana in s1: as part of repressed homosexual longings she was unable to articulate yet!

aha! i get that now. see, i tend to take everything at face value without puzzling out meanings. glad i commented, even though my comment was (now i realize) pretty elementary. ;)

glad i commented, even though my comment was (now i realize) pretty elementary. ;)

Don't be silly! You just haven't spent a lot of time reading everyone's episode analyses, I assume, since you haven't been watching live.

i've read some, only in the last couple of months; but without seeing the actual episodes, it's all sort of textbook, if you know what i mean. it was fun seeing it happen and then standing by for analysis from you and others. :)

I don't think Zod was controlling Lex until the download. I agree with LaT that his odd behaviour was merely an understandable reaction to his newfound powers. I guess Zod retains all of Lex's memories? Otherwise he wouldn't have known to be on the top of Luthorcorp for his rendevous with Lana.

I guess Zod retains all of Lex's memories? Otherwise he wouldn't have known to be on the top of Luthorcorp for his rendevous with Lana.

I guess! It's very curious. But I'm sure he has a devious plan--he must, right? And if it's "conquer the world and sleep with the hot chick," well, I'm ok with that (even though I think canonically Kryptonians think sex is icky).

Well, Smallville canonically, Kryptonians like to sleep with girls who look exactly like Lana. Remember Joe and Great-Aunt Louise?

Oh, sure--I definitely remember that, but I thought the whole point was that Joe was rebelling in such a huge way not just for falling for a human, but because he had a *physical* relationship with one.

Maybe Zod thought the climb to the top of Lexcorp tower would kill Lana?

No? Then I'll have to go with a Lexian "grand romantic gesture" like LaT because Lex couldn't know what would happen to the city.

As for what Zod wants with Lana, could be partly Lex's desire shining through, could be he's been locked away for a long time and he's desperate. Cause yeah, desperation would explain a lot.

But I thought Kryptonians didn't actually have *sex* (or that dirty body contact thing at all), they reproduced artificially.

Yeah, the romantic gesture seems to explain *Lex*'s motivations--and I guess we'll find out about Zod later. Maybe he just wants to be controlling all the people Clark loves in case he somehow breaks out of the Phantom Zone?

As for MillarGoughKrypto canon, it's anybody's guess. I mean, they've given us a Kryptonian inside a human body (altered though it may be), so who knows how that monkeywrenches regular Kryptonian physiology. Zod wanting to try out the body (and sex) would't discount your controlling Clark's people theory though. Zod has to know how powerful a weapon human sexual intimacy is. And if he makes Lana holla... Plus, he didn't immediately tell Lana he wasn't Lex - or toss her over the side of the building - so something's definitely up.

I can't believe we've got to wait to see how this plays out.

Gah. Is it September yet? ;)

And even though it would have been anticlimactic, how funny would it have been after all the sturm-and-drang "you will kill your father" foreshadowing, if Lionel had died after Lex threw him, so it all would have been an accident?

Oh, I would have been MAD. Insanely mad.

Why the hell is Chloe running around randomly in traffic, other than to deliberately put her in danger? And who the hell is going to save the day with Clark trapped in the Phantom Zone, Lana? Everybody else seems to be down for the count.

Seriously! Why was Chloe even outside? (And why couldn't she judo-kick like Lana? I mean, Lana's half her size!) But it's what the writers do...put everyone in some sort of danger/predicament in the season finale.

And speaking of echoing pivotal series scenes, that shot of Lex trembling in the field was a *wonderful* echo of his scene in the cornfield in the Pilot.

Good God. That scene literally gave me chills.

Actually, there were a few chill-inducing scenes in the episode. Gah, I loved the episode...WTF moments and all. I don't know how I'll survive the summer!

Oh, I would have been MAD. Insanely mad.

Mad because you want Lex to kill Lionel more appropriately, or mad because you love Lionel? (I love Lionel,personally, and I actually wouldn't mind him being redeemed if he were really redeemed--but this sudden thing where everyone forgets his evil past, and *he* gets to criticize Lex for being all EVIL, I find kind of crazy-making.

Mad because you want Lex to kill Lionel more appropriately, or mad because you love Lionel?

A bit of both. Lionel deserves a more spectacular death than that, whether or not Lex kills him. But I do love Lionel, bastardly or not. Although like a lot of folks, I'm not fully understanding how he's supposedly 'redeemed' now. Not that he couldn't be redeemed, but it certainly shouldn't be this sudden.

re: Lionel :)

For me, Lionel is trying (and hard, I think) to be a better person. I think his possession by Jor-El might be an almost religious experience for him. (see, the wonder with which he looks at Clark and also, his reaction to being stabbed in S4, this is a *third* chance). He's confronted with the knowledge of a race *above* humanity and one he can't possibly hope to compete with and so he is doing his best to ally himself with them instead. He's a saavy guy, he knows when fighting is a lost.

Further to this, seeing Clark as *so* powerful, and knowing the upbringing he (Clark) has had, I wouldn't be suprised if Lionel is trying to emulate JK with his platitudes, and more, I think he is now, genuinely concerned for Lex (Lionel has both the knowledge of how dangerous the Kryptonians are and Lex's need to be powerful) and since his emotional barometer doesn't cover 'concern for Lex' very well, he's falling back on established techinques that he has seen work for other people.

Lionel's motivations have changed too, his current aspiration, imo, is to be the kind of man Martha can love, (We know he's always been attracted to her and now she has both power herself and a powerful family.) Lionel knows that he can never be that person unless he's saved his own son, family is *so* important to the Kent's, which he can only now do through Clark (as he himself now realises that any power he had over Lex is long gone - we've seen Lex smack him down throughout the season,) because Clark is, to Lionel, almost *pure good*.

Either that, or he's totally playing us.

(also, im sorry about the total incoherancy of that, apparently I left my essay-like skills in highschool)

Becky, I wish I believed that Lionel was trying to be a better person, for real, and failing because, well, he's Lionel. Because honestly I love the old MB, and I hate his almost certain death in the future at the hands of Lex. And weren't you suggesting last week that maybe he's making an alliance with Clark because he knows who to ally with? I can definitely agree with that.

But what I'm afraid of (unless the writers are actually more brilliant than I think, and Lionel really *is* Jor-El who actually isn't Jor-El but ZOD) is that they're just flipping Lex and Lionel. Now that Lex is in charge of Luthorcorp and has symbolically replaced his father (and there have been a number of scenes showing that --like last week, Lex impatient to get on the helicopter while Lionel was trying to talk to him, mirrored some scene in season 1 perfectly, only it was Lionel trying to get on the helicopter), then Lionel gets to be the one all ambiguous and striving for goodness, and Lex is just pure evil.

And that particular reversal will drive me batty, if it turns out to be true and not just a deep Lionellian or Zodian plot.

Yes, that reversal would be terrible. I totally agree.

I'm making quite a few great judgement leaps in my ideas for Lionel, mostly because I can't cope with whats going on with him. Don't even get me started on other people's reaction to him, (I mean, how many of them did he actively *attempt murder* on. WTF is with Lois being all into Martha dating him?).

I like to think he's all good now because then other people are justified in the way they are treating him, trusting him at an arms length because they beleive he can change. (I think I might just have forgiveness and redemption issues with humanity as a whole, so the idea that Lionel goes from complete evil to good appeals to me personally, even if not entirely supported by the text/canon).

(For the most part, I think they (the writers) are simply turning Lionel inorganically good so that when Lex eventually kills him it will be *so* horrific to the other characters.)

I like to think he's all good now because then other people are justified in the way they are treating him, trusting him at an arms length because they beleive he can change. (I think I might just have forgiveness and redemption issues with humanity as a whole, so the idea that Lionel goes from complete evil to good appeals to me personally, even if not entirely supported by the text/canon).

I would LOVE if Lionel were redeemed. (But I would want BOTH he and Lex to be redeemed, not Lionel at Lex's expense.)

(For the most part, I think they (the writers) are simply turning Lionel inorganically good so that when Lex eventually kills him it will be *so* horrific to the other characters.)

Yeah, that's probably my biggest fear, with this whole Lionel arc.

Yeah, really interesting comments, Bex! I'd definitely like to go back and look at all the Lionel stuff in context now the season is complete. I must say he's been one of the most baffling and ambiguous characters all season. I do think Lionel is changed--that much I will say. I'm not sure I'm happy about it, but I do think it's interesting. I think I need to rewatch to work out my thoughts any further on that one.

Wow. Angry was an understatement! I love how ragey Lionel made you with the 'there was a dark side in Lex all along'. Certainly it fired me up too. But I figured it was very Lionel-esque. It has long been to his advantage to believe at one level at least that Lex had a 'dark' streak, starting with needing to believe that it was Lex that killed Julian, and running right through their relationship, justifying the necessity of manipulating Lex 'for his own good'.

KK was REALLY on her A game tonight
I totally agree. She really convinced me that she knew her character in these scenes. In fact, I'm beginning to attribute some of the Lexana spark to her, not just MR!

show *both* her extreme fear of the aliens *and* her loyalty and willing to embrace someone she loves as long as he is honest with her
Yup! So true! I do love the Lexana for that. It's definitely way up there with the canon relationships that I've invested emotionally in. Probably only the Chlark-arc at the end of S1 beats it.

I did wonder if Zod was already influencing him then
I read it more as him being a bit zoned-out by his extraterrestrial encounter. I could see glimmers of a Lex that was already starting to think beyond the immediate circumstances of his life to what he could do with those powers--inevitably the scale of his life would change.

I really do wonder how the hell they're going to get out of this next season!
Oh me too! I'm baffled. And a Chlark versus Lexana season has lots of potential. *g*

But I figured it was very Lionel-esque. It has long been to his advantage to believe at one level at least that Lex had a 'dark' streak, starting with needing to believe that it was Lex that killed Julian, and running right through their relationship, justifying the necessity of manipulating Lex 'for his own good'.

I don't object to Lionel having those thoughts--as you point out, it's in his self-interest. My objection is that it is not clear to the viewer that this is Lionel being his sociopathic self here--it sounds an awful lot like something the audience is supposed to be agreeing with, as if Lionel is a reliable interpreter of Lex's actions. And for Lionel, who is the father of lies, as LaT's icon above reminds us, to suddenly become the trustworthy intepreter of Lex simply because he's now on the side of good, is what infuriated me.

And now I have to go sit for three hours in the rain at a graduation ceremony, since Californians fundamentally don't believe in rain and don't, like sensible people, make rain plans to prepare for this eventuality. I'll get to your comments when I get back.

it sounds an awful lot like something the audience is supposed to be agreeing with, as if Lionel is a reliable interpreter of Lex's actions.
Yes, you're right, of course! That is awful. I guess because *I* am still suspicious of Lionel, I wasn't immediately aware of the framing--but you are right that they didn't do much to make it clear to the audience that Lionel's statements about Lex are less than trustworthy. I definitely share your (and LaT's) concern that Lionel may be being 'excused' because of his cirumstantial redemption.

It just seemed far too reminiscent, for me, of the time they decided to just have Chloe decide Lex was evil, without *explaining* that she had good reason too (which apparently she did, according to the Chloe chronicles--but people watching the show didn't know that).

I love that icon, btw. I love how everyone seems to be gossiping about Lex behind his back.

Yeah, I really love that shot! It does look like they're all gossiping--that's exactly what I thought. I haven't hunted out new icons since I got back--mine need refreshing. Always fun.

Yes, it is somewhat reminiscent of the Chloe-decides-Lex-is-evil thing. I see what you're saying. Sometimes the writers expect the audience to deal with these sudden and unexplained leaps in character. It's frustrating, to be sure.

Oh no! Rain! That is very silly--though I sympathise, as Melburnians are very bad at planning for cold windy weather, despite how much we get of it. I think the whole city's in denial ('We're in Australia, therefore it can't be that cold!).

Actually, it turned out to be better than last year, when it was already 85 degrees at 9 a.m. with the sun beating down. We had to use our umbrellas a lot, but otherwise it was pleasant.

Oh, that's a relief!

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SV "Vessel"

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