norwich36 | Heroes: Five Years On

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Heroes: Five Years On

I was completely fooled by the Sylar-Nathan thing. I was a little stunned by exactly how dark Nathan had gone--contemplating genocide seems like something of a leap, even though I didn't find it entirely implausible, and if Nathan had indeed embraced Lindermann's perspective I could certainly see him rounding up the other heroes while protecting his own family. Still, I cheered when I realized it wasn't really him, since I'm sure we're not getting that future. Some other depressing future, possibly, but not that particular one.

I also felt vindicated in my Hiro-Ando OTPness. Without Ando, Hiro becomes embittered and obsessive. *Pets him* I'm a little afraid that Ando's going to end up dying anyway--that's my guess as to the secret future Hiro whispered to him--but I was happy to see how important he was to Hiro. And Hiro's reactions to future Hiro amused the hell out of me: I scare me! Hee!!

I hated Matt with a fiery passion, but we were supposed to, and his actions certainly seem like a logical outgrowth of the path he's on now, especially if he played any role in the transfer of Ted's powers to Peter and the explosion that blew up the city. I can definitely see him rounding up the dangerous ones, and the deal with Bennett to let the harmless ones go is very interesting indeed. (I HATED Bennett's new glasses, btw, even though I realized they were there to emphasize the passage of time. I kind of loved he was running the underground railroad up until the point I realized he was deliberately turning some of the heroes in so they'd turn a blind eye to him, and then I was very disenchanted.)

I suspected Mohinder was going to get to be the one to save the day, and I suppose it was nice that he got to be the hero for once--but mostly I was very amused at the way Sylar had been playing him the *whole* time (and possibly sleeping with him in Nathan's body? Was I the only one who went there? Because physically that does it a lot more for me, and also the mindfuck factor is just incredibly creepy and wrong and kind of hot).

And speaking of creepy and wrong and kind of hot: I notice that Peter ended up with Nathan's ex-lover, in that classic "two straight male protagonists triangulating their desire for each other symbolically by having sex with the same woman" kind of way.

I suppose, if I were to think analytically rather simply reporting my emotional responses, I'd say what this episode revealed was that after extreme loss, most of the heroes either (A) reverted to their old patterns to cope with life (so Nikki is still stripping, even though she clearly is the boss of the place she works in; Matt has returned to law enforcement and rounding up the bad guys with a vengeance; Mohinder has slipped back into the role of research scientist and consultant) or else (B)they've embraced caricatured visions of their ideal selves (Nathan, the president, protecting the world, but in this case from monsters he created himself--and I suspect Nathan did play some role in that before Sylar took over his life; Hiro as a hardened killer desparately trying to unravel the past; Peter still protecting people (Nikki) but basically a drop-out from life; Bennett still acting as protector, of Claire and others, but betraying as much as he protects.) I wonder if any of the character things we've learned here are going to end up being significant, now that the reset button has been pushed?

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Yes, total agreement here. The Sylar-Nathan was genius and worked so well. I thought Nathan had gone a bit too dark too with the genocide (!!) but the show realistically made it seem like it was possible. And Hiro/Ando! They definitely confirmed that OTP. They need each other so much. And the hug! *squee* I scare me was too cute.

Nice to see that Sylar still keeps fooling Mohinder and the sleeping with thing I didn't think of but makes perfect sense. So very messed up. Nice catch with the triangulation as well. I really can't wait to see where the show goes with this.

Yeah, I was sitting there thinking "genocide? Oh Nathan, I like you dark but that's WAY too dark," so thank goodness it was Sylar.

And yay for Hiro/Ando!!!

Sylar had been playing him the *whole* time (and possibly sleeping with him in Nathan's body? Was I the only one who went there?

You are *so not* the only one who went there. 'Cause I went Right There, too, right around the time when "Nathan" did the shoulder-clasp thing we've seen the real Nathan deploy to great slashy effect with Peter. And now, there I wallow, happily contemplating the creepy-wrong-hotness of it all... *eg*

Oh, man, what if Sylar!Nathan was sleeping with Peter, too? Damn. I can't *wait* to see the stories that come out of this episode.

I suppose it was nice that he got to be the hero for once--but mostly I was very amused at the way Sylar had been playing him the *whole* time
LOL. Mo is like the dumbest genius ever. LMAO. And yeah, I was thinking Mo/Nathan there, too. It was a thing of twisted genius.

I have no one to squee with during the show over Heroes the way I do Blood Ties and SV, so... sadly I was squeeing alone at the intense Hiro/Ando thing going on there.

You mean you have no one in RL, or no one online? Because every other post on my f-list this morning seems to be about Heroes.

I'm still stuck OMGOMGOMGSQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

I'm trying not to think about it too much as time travel episodes confuse me (I mean, Clare was still alive and Mr. Bennet had been hiding her but then WHERE DID THE TIMELINE CHANGE AND WHY DIDN'T IT AFFECT LOTS OF OTHER THINGS IT'S SO COMPLICATED, NORA. I will wait for either you or Boppy to explain it to me).

And you see, Sylar has clearly been spending lots of lab time (and sleepless night, he even said it dammit) with Mohinder, obviously!

I love Matt a lot, that is all I have to say about him. \o/ HEROES!

*Glomps you*

Hey, Becky! We share a show again, yay!!!!!! And I definitely agree with your squee!!!

As for the timeline issues: hmmm. That's a really good question, and I don't know. Maybe the timeline changed for everybody *except* Hiro, because he's the one who travelled to the past? (And for all we know, future!Hiro might have just gotten back from talking to Peter in the past, so he just hadn't processed the time changes yet? I don't know.)

Yay Heroes!

Oh, p.s. here's a post that examines the whole paradox/time-travelling thing, though it kind of makes my brain hurt, too: http://sameoldhope.livejournal.com/10859.html?style=mine

ty! I'm glad to be feeling fannish about something again and it helps that Heroes is practically the offical show of the meme.

Well that's good!

Here's an even better explanation of the time paradox thingy:
http://latxcvi.livejournal.com/295983.html?thread=3738415#t3738415

I don't actually buy that person's rationale, mostly because I tend to see a timeline and future travel as a direct representative of the past, rather than an alternate reality with the 'past that was', as it were.

I'm finding it hard to believe that Sylar ever was the bomb, where it makes perfect sense to me that it was Peter and Nathan covered it up, and this fits into my teeny pet theory where Sylar doesn't actually know Nathan has powers and kills him for both revenge and political power which would be kind of a departure for him.

I worked out where I was going wrong in the timeline with my paradoxes anyway, I was working off the (stupid because I knew it was false) basis that Future!Hiro was correct that Sylar was the bomb. Since, as we're told by both Peter and Sylar, Peter is the bomb it makes no difference to the timeline whether the cheerleader is saved or not because it is not stopping Sylar that will stop the bomb.

I was completely fooled by the Sylar-Nathan thing.
Me too!!

I was so shocked in that scene with Claire!

Like you I was thinking how Nathan is very dark, and I wondered why there were no scenes with him and Peter. But I thought, like Hero said, it's a very dark future, so someone has to make drastic steps.
But - hello Sylar!!

And mwa ha, you are so not only one who went *there* with him and Mohinder!
I was all "hee! Nathan can't keep his hands to himself!" in that scene with Mohinder, when he put his arm on Mohinder's shoulder. But awww, it's S/M! Sylar still has to have him close. :D

All in all, very mind blowing episode!
Can't wait for next week. \o/

The Sylar/Mohinder thing is awesome, and I don't even really ship them, but good grief! The thought of Sylar keeping Mohinder close to him even though he can't reveal his true identity is so deliciously creepy!

And I agree with you about the Claire scene. No killing of the Claire! Not allowed!!

Oh man!! Sylar!Nathan totally fooled me!! And that scene with Claire???

*flails*

*Flails back*

It was completely awesome, wasn't it?

Oh, Nora!! I didn't go to the slash place...BUT...I have to say, I more than once said OMG last night while watching! I was chatting with someone on Yahoo Messenger and kept typing OMGOMG...they haven't watched the show in a while and I wound up spoiling them for the episode for them with my squeeing and OMG-ing.

The twist with Sylar completely blindsided me, and I wasn't surprised to see Peter and Nikki together. They both are really the most fragile of the heroes that survive the blast emotionally. They both lose quite a bit (Nikki seems to lose her husband and child, Peter loses his family) What interested me about their relationship was that it wasn't particularly tender and she was very, very needy. I'm really interested in what happened to Jessica or the 'other' personality that was alluded to an episode or two ago. Did the blast knock them out of her? The trauma of losing D.L. and Micah? WOW.
The Claire parts were just wrenching. She was so sadly sweet with her new and overly toothy (and totally opposite of Peter, physically) boyfriend as well as the scene with Mr. Bennet. Her 'last' scene was horrifying, which, given all the blood and gore that's been on "Heroes" since it started is silly, I guess, but I gasped out loud so hard. Amazing writing. I hope they can sustain that quality of writing into next season.

I'd like to see the new future be one that's a bit more optimistic, and how funny that the "Save The Cheerleader, Save The World" actually extends past that Homecoming Game. I love when plot threads weave back on themselves so beautifully. I can't believe there are only three more episodes left. Wow, just wow!

I wasn't surprised to see Peter and Nikki together. They both are really the most fragile of the heroes that survive the blast emotionally. They both lose quite a bit (Nikki seems to lose her husband and child, Peter loses his family) What interested me about their relationship was that it wasn't particularly tender and she was very, very needy. I'm really interested in what happened to Jessica or the 'other' personality that was alluded to an episode or two ago. Did the blast knock them out of her? The trauma of losing D.L. and Micah? WOW.

I saw someone's suggestion (I think on

latxcvi's journal) that Jessica might have "died" in the nuclear explosion, which is an interesting thought. And apparently Sylar ate D.L.'s brain, since he acquired his power of moving through walls.

You mention that Peter lost his family too--do you think he knows about Sylar!Nathan before the final fight? And do we think Mama Petrelli is dead in this future?

I do think that the rest of the Petrelli's may have perished in the explosion. Honestly, we don't know what Mama Petrelli's power is, so who knows She might be alive, but from how dark Peter had become, I really think he lost quite a bit in that disaster. I'm pretty sure Peter was surprised as we were by the Sylar!Nathan reveal, especially since he said that "Nathan" was the one who suggested they let everyone think it had been Sylar who was responsible for the blast.

*twirls you*

I wouldn't have seen the Sylar-Nathan reveal at all except that last week, I stumbled across someone's spec, based on that snippet of preview where Nathan was all, "I'm ~~the Prettiest Princess ever~~ the most special person in the world," that it would turn out to be Sylar-masquerading-as-Nathan. I thought the spec was far-fetched, but the possibility had been laid out, so I was mostly impressed that the show went there (precisely because I'd thought it was far-fetched; the show still sold it to me, if that makes sense).

ANDO/HIRO FOREVER! I don't say it often that the subtext practically became text, but ... the subtext practically became text. Future!Peter's commentary on how losing Ando destroyed Hiro's very soul kind of, um, sealed the deal.

I'm a little afraid that Ando's going to end up dying anyway

So am I, especially because I feel like there is a suggestion that the future is immutable (I mean, the series could go either way, but it can't be said that the creative team has failed to lay out the possibility that the destruction of New York is inevitable). I think I won't breathe a sigh of relief over Ando until we get to the end credits of the season finale and he's still alive when they start to roll.

I hated Matt with a fiery passion, but we were supposed to, and his actions certainly seem like a logical outgrowth of the path he's on now, especially if he played any role in the transfer of Ted's powers to Peter and the explosion that blew up the city.

Oh, definitely. Part of Matt's characterization, at least in the last handful of episodes, is that he's teetering on the brink between being a good man and a good man who turns to bad because circumstances make him feel like being good nets him nothing worthwhile (I'm thinking of him taking the diamonds after failing to save his bodyguarding charge from Jessica and overhearing the criticisms of him on that point). Also Matt is easily led: if you can offer him something that's appealing or valuable to him, then you have an easier time of manipulating him or getting him to make questionable choices.

I kind of loved he was running the underground railroad up until the point I realized he was deliberately turning some of the heroes in so they'd turn a blind eye to him, and then I was very disenchanted.

I understand that reaction and I actually share it, for the most part. But the thing that still redeems future!Mr. B. for me is that he didn't have to go the extra step of trying to protect additional meta-humans. My impression was that his initial interaction with Matt may have been a one-to-one deal: protect Matt's son in exchange for Matt turning a blind eye on Bennet's harboring of Claire. Mr. B. could have stopped there, but for some reason he didn't. He went beyond merely protecting/helping Claire and that does count for something, I think, because the alternative is that no meta-humans had a chance (or a significantly lesser number of them did).

I totally went to the Sylar!Nathan/Mohinder place. Should I be at all shappalled that going there kind of made me smile? 'Cause it totally did. Sylar's kind of, um, fixated on Mohinder, what with the not being ready to kill him last week and then this week, keeping Mohinder in his pocket the whole time he was impersonating Nathan.

ANDO/HIRO FOREVER! I don't say it often that the subtext practically became text, but ... the subtext practically became text. Future!Peter's commentary on how losing Ando destroyed Hiro's very soul kind of, um, sealed the deal.

That made my Ando/Hiro loving heart very, very happy.

I'm a little afraid that Ando's going to end up dying anyway

So am I, especially because I feel like there is a suggestion that the future is immutable (I mean, the series could go either way, but it can't be said that the creative team has failed to lay out the possibility that the destruction of New York is inevitable). I think I won't breathe a sigh of relief over Ando until we get to the end credits of the season finale and he's still alive when they start to roll.

Yeah--I mean, some things they seem to have been able to change (saving Claire), but some things they haven't (Isaac's death), so I am really up in the air about where they're going. I'm enjoying that, though--I felt in the first half of the season I anticipated almost every single plot twist, so I'm enjoying this half of the season a lot more since I can't always predict what's going to happen.

But the thing that still redeems future!Mr. B. for me is that he didn't have to go the extra step of trying to protect additional meta-humans. My impression was that his initial interaction with Matt may have been a one-to-one deal: protect Matt's son in exchange for Matt turning a blind eye on Bennet's harboring of Claire. Mr. B. could have stopped there, but for some reason he didn't. He went beyond merely protecting/helping Claire and that does count for something, I think, because the alternative is that no meta-humans had a chance (or a significantly lesser number of them did).

Oh, that's a really good point. I've gotten so sold on Mr. B as a character that I think I've forgotten how much he's basically just been a company and family man up until this point, so even doing that much is growth for him.

And I'm not *really* a Mohinder/Sylar shipper--Sylar pretty much creeps me out and I don't actually find him attractive--but DAMN. Keeping Mohinder in his pocket is a good way to put it.

The thing that had me suss was not the genocide (hee! I'm used to my characters advocating that... *pets Lee*) but the fact that he was so damn convinced he had Mohinder in his thrall. ;-) That's waaay more Sylar-y than Nathan-y.

You know that I hated the Ando bit

I hated Matt with a fiery passion
Ohh, me too. Though I still preferred him bad than his usual boring 'good' self. It just solidified for me the fact that Matt is a dumb chump no matter what reality we're in.

and possibly sleeping with him in Nathan's body? Was I the only one who went there? Because physically that does it a lot more for me, and also the mindfuck factor is just incredibly creepy and wrong and kind of hot
Haha, great minds! As with the incest... I've instigated 'incest watch' on my journal. :-)

I like your points A and B a lot and concur with them. *nods*

Ooh, you picked up on the Nathan/Sylar thing before the reveal? You are very SMART.

I agree with you about Matt being more interesting in this ep; I just didn't like him. :D

And yeah...you know, it's a good thing they didn't actually cast Adrian Pasdar as Sylar originally, because then I'd have to be very very sad when he gets killed. But even the little bit we got was AMAZING.

I only just clued on. It was when he asked Mohinder to commit genocide but they didn't give us an actual background reason why Nathan would think Mohinder was this devoted to him (after all, Mo had been arguing against it all ep). I just thought 'that sounds like Sylar... OH.'

It's a good thing they didn't actually cast Adrian Pasdar as Sylar originally, because then I'd have to be very very sad when he gets killed.
OMG, I would have been ALL about Sylar then. Sylar's a fun villain anyway, but cast Adrian in that role and he'd be giving Lex a run for his money as my favourite villain.

D:

Stop being mean to Matt!

Really?! You like Matt?

I love Matt, he's one of my favourites. On a basic level I love his devotion to his family and how he's just not very good at what he does but dammit he tries so hard and on another level I think out of all the Heroes his is the power that's the most easy to lead him into being a villian. I imagine his struggle to deal with it is much more real that most of the others (except maybe Niki/Jessica, I guess).

I love him for stealing the diamonds and then giving them to his wife as a present everyone always seems so well rounded and make the right choice whereas he makes the wrong choice but for the right reasons.

Ohhh, it's partly your thing where you like the ordinary people that struggle, not the superhumanly talented! *clicks* And while Matt does have a power, it's a power that's hard to deal with and is not directly empowering--it's not like being invulnerable or super-strong or something. I agree that it's a struggle, but his bad decisions have just annoyed me, but 'the wrong choice for the right reasons' is a good way of phrasing it to sell him to me...

Will do.

I actually love Grunberg, so even though I am often annoyed with Matt's plotlines, I usually don't hate him. But he killed Mr. Bennett!
I love Mr. Bennett!

I really loved Matt in the last two episodes, however--especially when he was talking down nuclear Ted.

My brain totally went to the the Mohinder/Nathan-Sylar place.

And I thought it was interesting that Nikki was not only Nathan's ex, but also someone that Peter had hurt horribly, because he caused the death of her son.

Oh, good point about Nikki hooking up with someone who had hurt her. Though of course she didn't know it at the time.

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Heroes: Five Years On

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