norwich36: (Default)
norwich36 ([personal profile] norwich36) wrote2006-12-12 10:40 am

SV "What If" Game

Edited to rename my game now that it is famous all over teh internets, since "an SV Game/Poll Thingy" doesn't scan quite as well.

I have one of those extremely tedious projects at work that require, for sanity, an lj break every half hour or so, so it seems like a good time to play a game.

So here's the premise: the SV fairy has appeared to you and offered you the opportunity to travel to the SV-verse, temporarily, to improve Smallville and/or the lives of the characters in any way you see fit. There are rules, however. You can either (1)have one conversation with one character (and only one character), time length up to one hour, at any point in the timeline OR (2) you can change one event, but not speak to anyone.

--If you choose the conversation, you can talk to anyone at any point in their timeline, but you have to be yourself (mysterious stranger); you can't, for example, be Clark to talk to Lex. You can, however, be a mysterious stranger who knows the future; you just can't hang around more than an hour to show that your predictions were accurate.

--If you choose changing an event, you have a fair amount of power--let's say the limit of your power is that of a meteor mutant--but you can only change one event, and you can't speak to anyone. So, for example, if your goal was to prevent Jodi from becoming a fat-sucker in "Craving," you could either magically prevent her father's greenhouse from being salted with kryptonite OR you could have a conversation warning her, but you couldn't do both. If you wanted to save Jonathan's life in "Reckoning," you could have a conversation with Clark or you could blow up the Fortress of Solitude (if you think that would help) OR you could puncture Jonathan's tires so he never has the encounter with Lionel, but you could only do ONE of those things, not all of them. If you want to redirect the meteors in the first meteor shower to squash Lana, you can do that, but you can't then talk to Clark to get him to wait on Loeb bridge so he saves Lex's life even though he no longer has Lana to moon over and so he may not end up there on his own.

SO:

What is your goal?
What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?
What do you think the effect of your change will be?
What might be the unintended consequences?

For example, here's mine.

What is your goal?
I want Lex NOT to become an evil monster whose sociopathy exceeds Lionel's. It turns out I want that even more than I want Clark and Lex to get together.

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?
After much thought about this, I think what I would do is appear to Lillian a couple days before she kills Julian and HEAL HER with my magical kryptomutant powers.

What do you think the effect of your change will be?
Even though I don't get to talk to her, my hope is that healing her would cover both her post-partum psychosis (to which I am attributing her desire to kill Julian) AND her heart condition, so she would live and continue to be a countering influence on Lex. I think by the time Lex gets to Smallville it's really too late for him to really change; he's too fucked up already. My hope is that if Lillian is not sucked down into despair because of her mortal illness, she would actually be able to support Lex in not becoming like his dad. And Lex would still have a little brother, who he clearly loved a lot, so that would give him motivation to try to be a good person and set a good example.

What might be the unintended consequences?
Well, Lillian might already be so damaged that she would still kill Julian, and maybe this time Lionel would catch her and she'd go to prison or be locked in an asylum, which probably would NOT make things better for Lex. Or maybe she wouldn't be caught, but she'd live, and instead of being Lex's dead model of goodness, she'd be the psycho-mom he was protecting, and that could get ugly and he might go evil earlier. Or maybe none of that would happen but instead Lionel would succeed in molding Julian to be the heir he wanted Lex to be, and instead of Lex being the evil genius he'd be locked in an eternal struggle with his brother the evil genius.

So, does anyone else want to play, or did I make the rules too complicated?

[identity profile] allzugern.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 07:49 pm (UTC)(link)
Goal: I want Lana dead.

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers? I will change an event -- CLARK DOES NOT SAVE HER. Lana stays dead and Jonathan lives.

What do you think the effect of your change will be? : Clark will learn to grieve and MOVE ON. Preferably to Lex.

What might be the unintended consequences? There are no consequences that are worse than Lana breathing air at the end of that episode. Martha will NEVER invite Lionel to Thanksgiving dinner, Bo Kent will be come Senator and Maybe Clark and Lex will get their happy ever after WITHOUT LANA THERE TO SHOE HORN HER WAY IN FUCKING EVERYWHERE.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 07:58 pm (UTC)(link)
So you're talking about Reckoning, right? When Lana dies in a car accident and Clark changes time? If you stop Clark from saving Lana in Reckoning (as opposed to in another episode), won't he blame Lex, rather than reconcile with Lex, since Lana's car accident was precipitated by Lex chasing her?

[identity profile] allzugern.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 08:00 pm (UTC)(link)
He'll get over it. Lex will be remorseful, Clark will open his big heart and forgive him. Eventually.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 08:12 pm (UTC)(link)
I was just thinking that Lana is in jeopardy almost every week; maybe you could have Clark not save her at some point in the continuity that's not so fraught with riftiness between Lex and Clark? Because I think you are more optimistic about canon Clark forgiving Lex for Lana's death than I am.

If you're trying to get around the Jor-El curse, how about: that TV in Chloe's hospital room doesn't function, so Clark never sees Smallville on the news and consequently doesn't freak about the meteor shower and go back to Smallville, so he never gets cursed by Jor-El in the first place, and Namak and the other one actually kill Lana before Lionel, possessed by Jor-El, sends them to the phantom zone. Of course, it's possible that Lion-El wouldn't stop the Kryptonians, and bad things would happen, in that scenario. But they wouldn't be Clex rift-inducing things.

[identity profile] allzugern.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 08:17 pm (UTC)(link)
Yes, that would work, but you know what? How about Lana is WITH her parents when they get struck by the meteor. She's dead before Clark ever meets her. That'll work for me, because I can't think of ANYTHING in canon that wouldn't be better off without her.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 08:27 pm (UTC)(link)
The only problem with that scenario, though, is that if Clark isn't mooning over Lana, is he still on Loeb Bridge to save Lex's life? Because I think we're supposed to think that's the proximate cause of his depression that day, and why he's dejectedly staring into the water. Of course, he may just be wallowing because he feels different, but I think his total awkwardness around Lana that day is supposed to be why he's moping around on the bridge.

[identity profile] allzugern.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 08:32 pm (UTC)(link)
but I think his total awkwardness around Lana that day is supposed to be why he's moping around on the bridge.

I always thought his moping on the bridge was due to the fact that his father wouldn't let him joing the football team. He was forced to watch Pete practice, and even though he had his little lana fantasy while there, he still would have been there waiting on Pete, as the reason for going out for the team was to save themselves from become the scarecrow. Clark's being down and hanging out on the bridge, imo, is due to his failure to do something (join the team) that would make him feel like a normal teenager -- Lana here or there.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 08:37 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, right, I completely forgot about the football thing. (Must be selective amnesia--I never really sympathized with Clark's football fantasies). Well, in that case, feel free to have the meteor shower rain down on Lana-- I just didn't want Lex to die as an unintended consequence!

[identity profile] allzugern.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 08:40 pm (UTC)(link)
Ahahaha! \o/

I figure, with Lana gone, Clark might move his interests over to Chloe, and Lex could give him advice and stuff about that, keep the Clark/Lex status quo until they are ready to deal with their deeper feelings for one another.

[identity profile] bop-radar.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 10:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Heeeee heee. If only I DID have selective amnesia about Clark's football fantasies. Sadly they haunt me...

[identity profile] pepperjackcandy.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 08:04 pm (UTC)(link)
Me, too.

With an emphasis on the reason for going out for the team was to save themselves from become the scarecrow.

[identity profile] bagheera-san.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 07:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Wow, this is so cool. I like your idea very much. Your unintended consquences especially, because they all sound so likely. I believe Lionel to be fully capable of fucking up any family he is presented with ;)

But I can't decide what I want to do! I can't even decide what my goal is! I mean, Lex not going evil would be ideal, but so would Lex and Clark staying friends (or ever becoming real, trusting friends in the first place.) Since I can't decide, I'll give you three scenarios, all of which are not entirely serious (esp. S2)...

What is your goal?
Wrecking havoc on SV continuity, hopefully with good consquences.

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?
Scenario1) I'm going back to the day of the first meteor shower! With my sparkly mutant powers, I give Lex a different krypto-power, one that isn't inherently dangerous to others, like super-speed or telekinesis or whatever.
S2)I go back to a time after the meteor shower, but before Julian was born. With my gun, I shoot Lionel and Lillian in a dark back alley while Lex watches.
S3)I go back to Season 4, and with my cool kryptonian crystal powers, I make it so that Lex becomes Jor-El's vessel instead of Lionel.

What do you think the effect of your change will be?
Well, let's say what I hope it will be, okay?
S1) Given that Lex survives until he meets Clark, and given that he meets him, a more active power will make it more likely that he reveals it to Clark and that Clark trusts him with his own powers like he did with Alicia. Aditionally, if Lex had, say, super-speed, he might have been able to rescue Julian, earning Lionel's respect.

S2)Traumatized by his parent's death, Lex decides to fight crime! Raised by his nurse Pamela , he trains hard and travels the world until he is ready to become a vigilante. Because criminals are a superstitious and cowardly lot, he disguises himself as Warrior Angel Alexander the Great a Bat! One night young run-away alien Clark (who, since Lex never came to SV, had a much harder time with the scarecrowing and Lana and everything else) tries to steal his tires and Lex catches him in the act! They fight crime. (Um, sorry. My "creativity" ran away with me...)

S3) Well, first of all, Lionel might be *quite* interested in why Lex is suddenly catatontic and white-eyed, but whatever horrible thing he did to Lex, Lex would probably break out once the events of "Hidden" happened. (and he wouldn't have broken up with Clark because "Mortal" never happened). Clark and Lex would have to deal with the fact that Lex is possessed by Jor-El, Lex would find out the truth, and working together, they might not be as easily tricked by Brainiac.

What might be the unintended consequences?

S1) Lex becomes overconfident and gets in trouble. Or Lionel puts him into some lab. Or Lex uses his powers for personal gain and Clark fights him the first time they meet. It's also possible that Lex might not have survived until meeting Clark if he hadn't had his healing powers.

S2) Need I say anything? Everything would go wrong.

S3) Lionel would probably do a lot worse to Lex if Lex was possessed than just putting him into Belle Reve. There might be invasive testing. There's also no telling of what havoc an evil Lionel might wreak in S5 (since he was arguably not evil in that season in canon.) Lex might not cooperate with Clark once he finds out - he might even blame Clark. Someone else might end up vessel for Zod. (Lana! *sporfle*)

Okay, you probably wanted more constructive answers, but my mind is only capable of crack right now.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 08:05 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, no, crack is part of the fun of this game, I think! (It's my version of "non-writers get to write AUs of SV without having to, you know, produce dialogue or plot or any of the hard stuff).

I LOVE your Batman Lex scenario very, very much. And you might be right that losing both parents would be better for Lex--it worked for Oliver Queen. Maybe being a complete orphan, under Pam's tutelage, is better than any of the alternative.

I also kind of like Lex being possessed by Jor-El, though I fear that he would feel invaded and blame Clark, and I definitely think Lionel would do bad things to him while he was possessed.

[identity profile] saturnalia.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 02:10 am (UTC)(link)
Traumatized by his parent's death, Lex decides to fight crime! Raised by his nurse Pamela , he trains hard and travels the world until he is ready to become a vigilante. Because criminals are a superstitious and cowardly lot, he disguises himself as Warrior Angel Alexander the Great a Bat! One night young run-away alien Clark (who, since Lex never came to SV, had a much harder time with the scarecrowing and Lana and everything else) tries to steal his tires and Lex catches him in the act! They fight crime.

*DEAD* Oh my god, you made Clark into Jason. This scenario just wins at everything, ever.

[identity profile] bagheera-san.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 08:29 am (UTC)(link)
*hands prize to you for recognizing Jason reference* It was supposed to be crack, but I'm trying to actually write that fic now...

[identity profile] saturnalia.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 12:19 pm (UTC)(link)
Hee! Well, be sure to leave me a link when you finish it. (Although bizarrely, the idea of Lex trying to decide what to disguise himself as is reminding me of this (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/192838.html)... *grin*)

[identity profile] bagheera-san.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 12:59 pm (UTC)(link)
*chokes on giggles* Oh God, I had seen that on scans_daily before, but I had forgotten... WomanMan!

[identity profile] ilovedoyle.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 07:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, I like the idea of 'healing' Lillian - I was thinking that she'd be equally as brilliantly calculating as Lex can be, but nice with it - kinda like Martha.
So, if you cured her, and she went over the time she had been sick in her head, and realised what a bastard Lionel was - and how he was going to destroy her precious babies. So, in a calculating moment of 'madness', instead of killing Julian, she kills Lionel! Being able to blame it on her illness, she is then healthy enough to raise both of her boys well and proper, gifting Lex with the factory for his 21st, leading him to face his fears and return to SV - and thus meet Clark!

I think if I was to have a conversation with anyone, it would be with Kal at Lex's 'funeral'.
I would explain that Lex was not dead, and that he was totally in love with Clark - had only married Helen because he thought he would never have him. Outline what their future would be if he did not accept his own feelings for Lex (which I can actually see Kal accepting better than Clark - the gay thing I mean), tell Lex he loved him to - and TELL LEX HIS SECRET! Explain that Lex could die of meterorite-induced cancer (yes, a slight exaggeration, but hey! he does lose a hand!) if Clark doesn't change their future.
Finally, I would explain that Lex would be saved soon, and deserved to return home to find Clark waiting for him, and so Clark had to return to SV - as Clark! ready for him - complete with all the information (which I would give him) on how and why Helen had tried to kill Lex.

Otherwise, I might have a conversation with Clark pre-Pilot, and just come right out with it - Clark Kent, you are soooooooo gay! You need to accept this and stop mooning over you vapid neighbour. Coz pretty soon, you're gonna meet your soulmate - a beautiful, pale lithe drop of perfection wrapped in a porshe. And when they day comes, you've got to take the plunge, or you'll regret it for the rest of your life. And in that man you will not only find a great conversationist, friend, confidante (about secrets *you* don't even know yet!) but the other half of your soul.

Yes, more than a lil bizarre, but these are the scenarios I came up with - although, before I read the rulls under the cut, by immediate response was just to changer ONE thing - have Lex kiss Clark back after receiving the Kiss of Life!

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 08:19 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooh, it would be really interesting if Lillian killed Lionel. Would Lex ever know? Would he realize that she did it for his own good, when he eventually found out, or would he be as horrified as he was when he found out that Lionel killed his grandparents?

I like both of your scenarios for having the conversation with Clark--but I agree with you that Kal rather than Clark is more likely to accept the truth of his gayness from a stranger. (I also think that if you're going to have a conversation with Clark, you better have a lot of facts for him about stuff that's going to happen in his immediate future so he actually believes you!) I'm not sure about telling a 15 year old who's spent his whole life in love with his next-door neighbor that his soulmate is a guy is going to necessary be believable to him, though. (I guess that depends on your reading of exactly how gay Clark is already at the beginning of the series).
ext_2583: "Lady Agnew" by John Singer Sargent (Clex True Love)

[identity profile] mskatej.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 08:03 pm (UTC)(link)
What is your goal? I want Lex to know Clark's secret.

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers? I would be a patient at the mental hospital and I would kill the boys responsible for getting in the way of Clark's rescue of Lex.

What do you think the effect of your change will be? Finally Clark will be able to be open and honest with Lex about who he is, and Lex will stop investigating him and just be a good friend who would protect Clark's secret with his life. Whether or not they get together, Clark's friendship will keep Lex grounded and they will finally be able to trust each other completely.

What might be the unintended consequences? Lex may already be too far down the dark path at this point, and if Clark does something to piss him off, he may decide to use his knowledge of Clark's origins and powers against him. BUT I DON'T BELIEVE HE WOULD.

*never ever forgives Asylum*

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 08:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, yes. That's a good use of your powers. If Clark had rescued Lex while Lex still knew his secret, Lex *definitely* would have been on Clark's side forever. On the other hand, I fear they might have spent a long time on the run from Lionel, with no safe haven to turn to, if that had happened.
ext_18566: (clex lookback)

[identity profile] voldything.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 08:43 pm (UTC)(link)
I WAS GOING TO SAY THE SAME THING

[identity profile] juxtoppozed.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 08:19 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooh fun!

What is your goal? Fix Clex (or at least buy them more time to fix things), and in turn hope to fix Lex.

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?

Change the way by which Clark saved Lex that very first time-- Magically give Clark the presence of mind to refrain from peeling off the roof of the car, instead just pulling the door open (not off) and pulling Lex out.

What do you think the effect of your change will be?

This was the first major red flag to Lex that there was something Special about Clark. Altering the event in such a way that they still dramatically meet, still become strangely smitten with/drawn to each other, but without the specter of the Secret immediately there gives Lex a chance to get to know Clark for Clark. Clark could relax, let his guard down around Lex, and though he'll probably still continue to save Lex's life and invite questions-- imo that first dramatic save was the biggest question mark of them all and it's clear that "just a guy that tried to do the right thing" isn't good enough to keep Lex waiting. So I'll remove that first gigantic specter of suspicion and hope they'll do the rest themselves. After trust is built up, Clark will tell go on to tell Lex everything and they'll work it out, much the same way as Pete/Clark and Chloe/Clark.

Upon further thought...I realize in a lot of ways this is how the Chlark friendship played out--they got to know each other pretty well, as people, first before a major WTF revelation about Clark. They were equipped to deal with it then. Yes, there were question marks for Chloe along the way, but because the friendship got off on the right foot, she and Clark were able to compromise and he promised to tell her when the time was right.

What might be the unintended consequences?

I routinely wonder if Lex really cared for Clark beyond his "Special"ness so the biggest unintended consequence would be Lex just thanking the farmer kid with a truck and moving on with his life as though Clark was just a random good Samaritan. But if Lex's spiel about flying over Smallville during the save is to be believed, I think there's a good chance the friendship will grow.

Alternates scenarios...(if I was able to leave my personal morals behind in this fictional world ;)), preferably that Lionel or Jonathan die (I'd make it so that Sheriff Ethan really did kill Lionel for instance) and Lex is drawn closer into Clark and Martha's world-- important because I think... whereas a teenage Clark wouldn't know where to start with a case like Lex'sMartha as surrogate mother figure, with Lionel and/or Bo out of the way, would have done wonders.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 08:34 pm (UTC)(link)
Ooh, that's a very good change! (Though I'm not sure how you're doing it--Kryptonian power of suggestion?) I think you're absolutely right that if Clark and Lex had been able to have a relationship not freighted by Clark's secret, things would have gone better. Also, Clark needed time to adjust to the idea that he was an alien--I think part of the reason he can be comfortable with Chloe knowing is that he's had a lot more time to adjust to it himself.

I *hope* Lex would still be interested in Clark, even without the mystery, though I do wonder. (He still also might be convinced he hit Clark with his car, of course, and eventually Clark's ability to be in the right place at the right time would be apparent).

And oh, Lex becoming Martha and Jonathan's surrogate son is really one of my favorite scenarios. (And clearly Lex's, too, if Lexmas is any indication--the fact that Jonathan was the one honoring him clearly carried a lot of weight with him).

[identity profile] juxtoppozed.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 08:47 pm (UTC)(link)
I think you're absolutely right that if Clark and Lex had been able to have a relationship not freighted by Clark's secret, things would have gone better. Also, Clark needed time to adjust to the idea that he was an alien--I think part of the reason he can be comfortable with Chloe knowing is that he's had a lot more time to adjust to it himself.

That's just it...I mean, it's easy to forget that Clark and Lex? Kind of found out how truly Special Clark was at the same time. Clark always knew he was some sort of mutant, but until the accident, it came off like he hadn't yet realized the true magnitude of his secret. Clark's meltdown about that was what prompted Jonathan to finally reveal that Clark was an alien. So yeah...I think Clark needed time to come to terms with that all on his own before he had a new friend asking questions about and investigating it. Because no matter how much he loved Lex, how intense they were right from the beginning? I still think it's all a bit too early, to reveal your secrets to someone you just met...letting the trust grow first would have given Clex a firmer foundation to deal with things better later on.

You give Jonathan more credit than I do in such a possible scenario...Just to be on the safe side, I'd want him out of the way completely and just have Martha, Clark, and Lex as a little family. I felt like Martha wanted Lex around more but differed to Bo. Jonathan...he seems to flip flop too much about Lex. And yes, sometimes parents just can't get over their dislike and distrust of a certain friend and that's cool, but in this special case, the lives of billions are at stake decades down the line so he needs to be out of the way and let Martha nurture Lex and Clark/Lex just be themselves :)

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 09:00 pm (UTC)(link)
So how are you getting Jonathan out of the way? Because the only scenario I can think of that gets both Jonathan and Lionel out of the way is that Jonathan gets arrested for Lionel's murder, and that doesn't seem likely to produce much in the way of Lex bonding with Martha and Clark.

(And also, though I really do love Mionel enough to let me accept things I wouldn't normally in service of that pairing--which is why I haven't been too critical of Martha this season--I'm not very impressed at Martha without Jonathan. If Jonathan's death changes Martha to such an extent that she's no longer really sensitive to *Clark's* feelings, I'm not sure she'd do so well with Lex, either. Martha seems to need Jonathan to be her anchor, regardless of how we feel about him, so I'm not sure getting rid of Jonathan is going to have the effect that you think it will).

I think we both completely agree on Clark needing more time to adjust to his alienness, though.

[identity profile] juxtoppozed.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 09:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Good question...they both die in the meteor shower, early on (to minimize Clex's guilt)? (Despite Clark and Lex's best efforts, Lionel dies in the hospital or on the way there, Jonathan's heart gives out on him or something)

I would have been more behind Mionel if it was built up with more finesse and more gradually. I like that Martha is attracted to Lionel in spite of herself and thinks she can change him; I like the Lionel's one weakness seems to be Martha (why else hasn't he exploited the Kents?). It's just how soon they've moved things along post-Jonathan's death that is icky. And they'd have to have a talk about all the crazy shit Lionel has done, like try to experiment on her son, and then build a bit of trust or something. I like the pairing, it's the execution on the show that needed more care.

I'm not very impressed at Martha without Jonathan. If Jonathan's death changes Martha to such an extent that she's no longer really sensitive to *Clark's* feelings, I'm not sure she'd do so well with Lex, either.

This is a good point...I'm not sure what's up with her making the moves on Lionel considering how Clark feels about him but I see it as her ultimate weakness...should both Bo/Lionel die, her love for Lionel wouldn't be an issue. I think she'd be a warm enough mother figure. I mean...she wouldn't be perfect. Clark/Lex/Martha would cope with all their losses together and be stronger for it, ideally. But she'd be a good, sane stand-in for Lillian or Lionel and maybe that's all Lex would need? I don't think he needs a mother Teresa so much as a mother figure that loves him and confirms to him that Lionel was full of shit.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 09:31 pm (UTC)(link)
It's just how soon they've moved things along post-Jonathan's death that is icky.

I can see why you think that, but since I happen to know personally three widows in their 40s who all remarried within a year or less of their husbands' deaths, I think it's probably a more common response to grief than is generally acknowledged. I'm more concerned about how gullible she's being, especially given the heinousness of his past crimes. I mean, he murdered his parents! Tortured her son! Fried his own son's brain! Changed or not, these seem like problem areas for a relationship.

But it's true that Lionel really does seem to have a soft spot for Martha--though I'm sure that's tied to his desire to establish some sort of hold over Clark, as well.

You may be right that without Lionel to tempt her, Jonathan's death might not affect her moral compass quite so much. (But which meteor shower are you killing them off in--the first one or the second one? I'm confused).

[identity profile] juxtoppozed.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 12:08 am (UTC)(link)
Crap, I was thinking of the S1 finale--the tornadoes, not the meteor shower, sorry. I was thinking of the earliest natural disaster that posed great mortal danger for both Bo and Lionel (post-Clex meeting) and I think that's the safest bet.

I'm more concerned about how gullible she's being, especially given the heinousness of his past crimes. I mean, he murdered his parents! Tortured her son! Fried his own son's brain! Changed or not, these seem like problem areas for a relationship.
I have a harder time with that too. Especially since one of Lionel's victims was her own son. Makes it particularly callous. The "dating widow" thing is only secondary and only because it's Lionel in particular.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 12:57 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, the tornadoes! Ok, that's an effective way to off them both.

[identity profile] amandajane5.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 09:05 pm (UTC)(link)
What is your goal?
I want Lana dead.
What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?
Change an event - Lana does not survive the helicopter crash in Commencement.
What do you think the effect of your change will be?
Lana will be dead!! Whoo!! I mean really, Clark would probably be sad for a while, perhaps while looking oh-so-pretty at her funeral. Then he and Lex would bond over their sadness and then OMG fall in love!
What might be the unintended consequences?
Erm, Chloe would need a new roommate? I can't really see a downside.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 09:23 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm trying and trying to think of a reason why Lana being alive in S5 matters.

:Thinks very hard:

Ok. She's dead, so Clark doesn't stay behind when he comes back from the Fortress to help (unless he's prostrate with grief, but let's assume he actually goes back to the Fortress to yell at Jor-El). So nobody else has to die, and he gets the training he needs so he doesn't get fooled by Brainiac, and hopefully manages to prevent Lex from being possessed by Jor-El.

And let's see. This also means Jonathan Kent doesn't die, and is elected Senator. There still may be some riftiness between Clark and Lex, but it isn't exacerbated by Lana. Is Lex still investigating the space ship? Probably. Is Lionel still possessed by Jor-El? Hmm, I don't know.

Lana didn't save anyone's life in s5, did she? Does it count that she tried to save Lex in Lockdown? But he wouldn't have gotten shot if he hadn't try to rescue her, so never mind.

Yeah. I can't think of any bad consequences for the other characters except that Clark would be sad, if Lana died in Commencement. Am I forgetting anything?

[identity profile] amandajane5.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 09:34 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't think so, I mean really, I see the problem with killing her in the first meteor shower, because it is very important that the Clex have their meet cute, but what has she done since the second shower? She was a bitca to Clark and up and applied to college and didn't even tell him about it. Then she whined about secrets and lies. Then she took advantage of Chloe and poached her room. Then she caused Jonathan's death because she's an idiot and just *had* to go hang with drunk Lex. Then Clark broke up with her because of...secrets and lies, so she became a druggie. Then this season she's done little that actually affects anyone's plots other than that Lex is lying to her. I really don't think we'd be missing a thing, other than the fact that we'd get more focus on the other characters.

Whoo! I feel like I should win something. Like a trip back in time so that this can actually be what happened.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 09:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, I started liking Lana in season 5, so I feel like I should be defending her, but I honestly can't think of a way she has positively affected anyone in the last 2 seasons. I mean, I suppose from one perspective she's keeping Lex from completely going over to the dark side, but would he be there if he weren't so alienated from Clark?

Unfortunately I don't HAVE magical Kryptonian powers to transport you into the SV verse. And if I did have magical Kryptonian powers I'd be figuring out a way to bend the rules and spend my hour having sex with Lex, sorry. :D I'm not completely selfish--I'd, um, warn him at the end or something.

[identity profile] amandajane5.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 12:02 am (UTC)(link)
I have...disliked her slightly less? For the most part? She's just so very unnecessary to everything I find appealing and important on the show *and* she's driving the rift between my boys which is so very unforgivable.

Heh, well if I really got to go? I'd be so all about getting teh sex from my prettiest of pretty boys, but in a fixing the show sense? I'm just so over her.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 12:06 am (UTC)(link)
Sheepish fangirls confess: well, umm, we figured if we just keep Clark and Lex so busy having sex with us, they'd be way too busy to ever have a rift, or destroy the world, or anything like that. So really, it's world-saving sex!

[identity profile] latxcvi.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 12:16 am (UTC)(link)
I mean, I suppose from one perspective she's keeping Lex from completely going over to the dark side, but would he be there if he weren't so alienated from Clark?

And I don't even think it can be said that Lana's keeping Lex from completely going over to the dark side. I mean, he's pretty much already there -- 'cause hi, holding sentient beings against their will and experimenting on them -- so at this point, it's just a question of how dark is he gonna get before it's all over (i.e., will we actually get the patricide with Lionel before the series ends). Lana's not really doing anything to hold Lex in check (largely because of how expertly he manipulates her/how much she doesn't concretely know about his dealings); to the extent that there's the appearance that she's having some kind of effect, that's all it is -- appearances. Subterranean's awesome last minute and a half makes it pretty clear that Lex is going to do whatever Lex wants and in the end, I totally think he'd choose his ambitions over her if it became clear he couldn't have both.

Reposting with correct icon!

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 12:41 am (UTC)(link)
(Since pointing to icons only works if you actually use the right icon).

Points to icon.

I agree, Lex is firmly in the "villain" camp. I guess what I really meant is that right now, for some viewers (obviously not ALL) Lana functions to show us the sympathetic, or at least more human, side of Lex. I actually wish they'd get on with Lana's corruption a little more, if they're going there, because it would be very helpful to me to hear Lex's own justifications for what he's doing. I assume he has them, and that he's convincing himself that he's protecting humanity from the aliens, or non-mutants from mutants, or something, and I want to hear him tell her that.

Do you have any doubts about the patricide? Hell, I'll be surprised if Lionel makes it past this season.

Re: Reposting with correct icon!

[identity profile] latxcvi.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 03:14 pm (UTC)(link)
I actually wish they'd get on with Lana's corruption a little more, if they're going there, because it would be very helpful to me to hear Lex's own justifications for what he's doing.

See, I really don't think they're going there. Or, to be more accurate, I think their attempts to go there will be very half-assed. Already we have, what, three instances this season where Lana's quite deliberately been kept from knowing the full extent of Lex's shenanigans (here I'm thinking of Rage, Static and Subterranean although the latter two are arguably connected to each other)? The effect is that when she says she supports him, there's wiggle room because she doesn't know the full extent of what she's supporting; her choice actually isn't as informed as it could be.

If I were less cynical and more optimistic about the show, I'd think they were doing something really sophisticated and nuanced, i.e., positing that simply because Lana has chosen willful ignorance in terms of her relationship with Lex (she could learn this stuff if she pushed harder to find it out, etc.), she's not excused for her complicity in his wrong-doing. But ... I don't think that's what they're doing. I think they've actually be fairly careful in ensuring that Lana has an out: she can always say she didn't really know, that Lex really duped her and I do think that Clark, at least, would believe her (Chloe might be more skeptical in the wake of Static, but she'd still probably rally to Lana's side when the inevitable repudiation of Lex by Lana came).

In Subterranean, Clark isn't subscribing Lana's involvement to Lana's own choices. His accusation that she's a "puppet" is the kind of thing you'd say if you're essentially ignoring/denying the person's own agency in their actions. Even now, when Clark is rightly assessing her as being somewhat naive/foolish, he still doesn't view that as a function of Lana's active involvement; it's still all about the fact that Lex is manipulating her in some way.

I think they like the idea of Lana possibly being corrupted by Lex's influence (and even that approach is problematic, because it still puts the ultimate onus somewhere other than Lana's own agency). But they've done too much just this season to suggest that Lana really is an inherently good person -- like her willingness to potentially sacrifice herself to keep everyone safe from Zod or her explicitly stated desire to use Lex's money to "do good" -- for me to believe that they'd fully go there, with all that going there entails (up to and including Lana knowingly getting her hands dirty).

I assume he has them, and that he's convincing himself that he's protecting humanity from the aliens, or non-mutants from mutants, or something, and I want to hear him tell her that.

See, this is why I really wish they'd introduce Mercy and Hope (or at least Mercy). Because I don't think Lex will ever tell Lana exactly why he's doing what he's doing because I don't think he'll ever tell her exactly what he's doing. But if Lex had at least one character he could talk to that he knew would not judge him no matter what he did, I think he'd open up about his reasons/justifications. But TPTB seem to be really afraid of making us privy to Lex's internal landscape. I get the sense that now that he's moved firmly into the "villain" camp, they feel like it might make him too sympathetic if he ever got to explain himself.

Re: Reposting with correct icon!

[identity profile] pepperjackcandy.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 09:42 pm (UTC)(link)
But if we heard Lex's reasons for going bad, it'd break with tradition, since TIIC have some kind of allergy to characters' internal lives in general.

Re: Reposting with correct icon!

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 01:49 am (UTC)(link)
I get the sense that now that he's moved firmly into the "villain" camp, they feel like it might make him too sympathetic if he ever got to explain himself.

Yes and no. I mean, he has explained his reasoning to Lana a couple times this season (in Fallout, for example, though she wasn't very receptive there to his "protecting humanity from the aliens") argument, and I almost felt Lana was speaking for Lex in Static when she said the meteor mutants were dangerous and she'd understand if he was studying them. So at least they're giving him some justification.

But I agree that they seem to be worried about making him too sympathetic, so when he's not mooning over/manipulating Lana, he's been extremely closed off this season. I had a conversation in the comments of somebody's episode review--unfortunately I can't remember whose--talking about how worried we were that when the Lexana comes to an end, we're not going to see an interiority to Lex anymore at all, just the cold opaque surface. And that worries me. I don't mind villainous Lex, but I want to be able to see his motives--otherwise he just becomes a cardboard villain, and that's no fun.

Giving him Hope or Mercy would definitely be a step in the right direction, though.

As for Lana--you're probably right that the writers are ultimately going to cheat chicken out not really allow Lana to suffer the consequences of the decisions she makes with Lex. It's too bad, because they managed to keep Lillian marginally sympathetic even though Lionel drove her crazy enough to murder her own child; it would be interesting if they went that far with the Lana parallel. But they probably won't.

[identity profile] pepperjackcandy.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 09:59 pm (UTC)(link)
What might be the unintended consequences?
Erm, Chloe would need a new roommate? I can't really see a downside.


Everyone in town would commit suicide because they can't live without her. Waah!

8-D

[identity profile] bop-radar.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 10:42 pm (UTC)(link)
I want to play this game about ten times over, but I'll stick with my first plan...

What is your goal? Remove Jonathan's influence over Clark
What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers? Strike him dead in the first meteor shower. POW!
What do you think the effect of your change will be? Clark would have been brought up with Martha's nurturing influence but without J's heavy-handed paternalism. I think Martha would still have been just as eager to have Clark hide his secret. But she would have been more open to the Clex friendship, thereby allowing Clark to make his own decisions about whether he shared his secret with Lex (possibly at an early enough stage that Lex didn't spiral into destructive obsession). It would also have meant that Jonathan wasn't around to fly into suspicious rages when reporters came snooping, and it would mean that Clark had a Daddy-shaped hole to fill. And who could fill that hole? JOR-EL!!! *twirls* Clark would have embraced his destiny a lot earlier--he would have craved connection with the only father figure in his life and therefore he could have averted the whole Zod disaster far earlier with his kickass training.
What might be the unintended consequences? Mionel. Dude. So would have happened.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 10:55 pm (UTC)(link)
Feel free to play 10 times, if you can come up with 10 different scenarios.

If Jonathan died in the first meteor shower, the first Clark-Lex meeting would probably have been quite different, since Martha would have almost certainly returned to Metropolis. For one thing, she would have needed her father's help to adopt Clark.

Actually, if Jonathan was killed in the meteor shower, do you think she still would have actually adopted Clark? Or would she have unconsciously (or consciously) blamed him for her husband's death? Regardless of how the viewers feel about Jonathan, Martha clearly loved him--had he been killed by the meteors I really wonder if she could bear to adopt the alien baby who came with the meteors. I *seriously* doubt she would have been up for rescuing Lex--if anything, she would have been rushing Jonathan to the hospital, maybe with Clark on her lap, but she wouldn't have stopped for Lionel. So she would have needed her father's help to adopt Clark.

But I expect she would seriously resent having to go to her dad because he hated Jonathan so much. Hmm. I don't know, I think there are lots of unintended effects to killing Jonathan off in the first meteor shower that would really affect Martha's ability to nurture Clark.

[identity profile] bop-radar.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 11:03 pm (UTC)(link)
Damn! You foil we with your logics. :-)

What if Lionel 'accidently' killed Jonathan shortly after the meteor shower--like ran him over with a car. :-) It has nice cross-generational parallels, and I totally believe that Lionel would have given Martha a whopping big payout, grovelled and begged her to stay on the farm. He's the master manipulator--he could totally spin that. I could make Lionel do that by... oh, I don't know... kidnapping him and making him do it! He could hardly say 'an evil girl from the future made me do it' to them, so he would have genuine guilt about the death which would make his grovelling all the more convincing.

So Martha's already adopted Clark, she doesn't blame him for the death of J and she can stay on the farm. YAY!

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 11:16 pm (UTC)(link)
That works better for me, because I think it's important that Clark's arrival not be directly connected to Jonathan's death, or else it will eventually create huge problems between Clark and Martha.

And as long as you're being "evil girl from the future," you could always make Lionel conceal the fact that he was responsible for Jonathan's death, but since he's already "helped" Martha once, he could show up and offer to help her out, strictly on a friendly basis, but in a way that would definitely lead to Mionel.

However, as I said to [livejournal.com profile] juxtoppozed, I think, somewhere in this thread, I'm not completely sure that Martha without Jonathan is the moral paragon we all think she is, or that she's likely to be more open to Jor-El.

Why, exactly, do you think it would have been a good thing for Clark not to be influenced by Jonathan? I'm not sure I've ever heard your opinions on that.

[identity profile] bop-radar.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 11:35 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm not completely sure that Martha without Jonathan is the moral paragon we all think she is, or that she's likely to be more open to Jor-El.
Oh, I agree, but I don't think it matters. I think the fact that she's not a moral paragon would allow Clark to develop his own morality earlier, and I think Clark's craving for a father would take care of her resistance to Jor-El. We saw him seek out contact with Jor-El despite her feelings in Season 2--I think that urge in him was very very strong. I don't think it would be the easiest family dynamic in the world. But I think it would ultimately teach Clark more and make him more of an independent adult at a younger age.

Why, exactly, do you think it would have been a good thing for Clark not to be influenced by Jonathan? I'm not sure I've ever heard your opinions on that.
1. Anger management: Clark's anger mirrors J's so perfectly I can't help but feel that he imprinted on this behaviour pattern at an early age. He's reckless, he flies into rages without thinking things through, and he sees violence as a solution--all VERY unhealthy things for a future Superman to learn.
2. Prejudice: Jonathan accepts the surface as truth--we see this most clearly with the Luthors. He has one fixed idea of them and he denies any complexity in the picture, even when there is some. This is still Clark's failing today. Clark doesn't uncover the real truths of Lex's evilness because he's been too busy throwing accusations that aren't completely accurate. The Luthors are not black and white--they justify what they do, they act out of multiple motives, sometimes it would pay to work with them. But thanks to Jonathan, Clark's forever stuck in open adversary mode. He'll have to rely on others to sneak under Lex's radar and find out the real truth.
3. False moral superiority and self-righteousness: Again, learnt from Jonathan. Apart from the obvious limitations of these attributes, I think there's a subtler issue for Clark: he finds it very hard to accept personal failure. Jonathan did nothing to teach his son that failure is part of life, that sometimes you can't control fate. He was so smug and felt so entitled to being viewed as a good man, that he made Clark fear admitting you're not, admitting you make mistakes.
4. Football. Partly Clark's drive for it came from his ridiculous idealisation of his father as high school football hero.

That enough? ;-)

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 11:57 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't know that I can argue with you about 1 and 3. It's hard to be an American boy in a small American midwestern town and not get sucked into football, though, especially because it really is a huge social status thing in high school. And it would still be a marker of "normal" for Clark reagrdless of whether his dad was a football star or not.

I'm a little waffly on #2, though. Jonathan had very good reason to suspect Luthors bearing gifts, and much as I love Lex, most of his interactions with the Kents in season 1 (when he was the least shady) were still pretty weighted with ulterior motives. I do agree that Clark and Jonathan both need to learn shades of gray, however.

[identity profile] bop-radar.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 12:42 am (UTC)(link)
most of his interactions with the Kents in season 1 (when he was the least shady) were still pretty weighted with ulterior motives
Oh, I totally agree, but I don't think Martha would have welcomed them all with open arms either. I don't think removing Jonathan from the picture would have meant that Martha didn't bring Clark up to be cautious, and I think he would have learnt that Luthors may have ulterior motives for himself by seeing that with his Dad. But I don't think he would have judged the son by the father. I don't think there was anything innate in Clark (or Martha) that would do that. They would be wary but not ridiculously suspicious--a far healthier attitude towards Lex at that time. I think Martha would be necessary as a guide for Clark in navigating that friendship while he was still so young, and I think she'd be good at letting Lex close but not toooo close, until Clark was ready.

[identity profile] pepperjackcandy.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 10:07 pm (UTC)(link)
Why, exactly, do you think it would have been a good thing for Clark not to be influenced by Jonathan?

Ooh! Can I put in my $0.02 on this?

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 12:55 am (UTC)(link)
Of course! I'm interested in hearing what you think.

[identity profile] pepperjackcandy.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 11:02 pm (UTC)(link)
I've had problems with Jonathan for a long time. Since Hothead, in fact. Well, actually, he kinda put me off with his reaction to Martha's longing for a child in the Pilot, but I digress.

In retrospect, I think that Bo's narrow-mindedness and, well, stinginess of spirit is keeping Clark from his iconic place in this universe. Clark should be the first and the best. He should *not* be getting trained by Bruce WayneOllie Queen.

Are you spoiled for upcoming eps?

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 11:31 pm (UTC)(link)
Nope. Or, only to the extent that titles are spoilers, and I've seen the preview they ran after Subterranean.

I don't really see him as being trained by Ollie, though--rather the reverse.
After all, he's the one teaching Ollie that killing is wrong, mkay, and that using drugs is wrong and that vigilantism is not always right. Sure, Ollie is one person encouraging him to take responsibility beyond his immediate circle, but it's not like that's what's pushing Clark out into the world--he was already moving in that direction as a result of his sense of responsibility for Black Thursday and releasing all those Phantom Zone inmates.

Really, the only thing keeping Clark from his iconic place in the universe is the fact that there's probably going to be a season 7, and they have to leave some plot developments for then. :D But I think he's been coming along by leaps and bounds this season.

[identity profile] latxcvi.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 12:33 am (UTC)(link)
You think? I mean, Martha's great love for Jon hasn't stopped her from rubbing all over Lionel (metaphorically), so I can believe she'd find Clark to be a sufficient silver-lining for the meteor shower causing Jon's death. Especially given that it's really not at all right or fair to blame Clark for that, first of all, and second, because she wanted a child so much. I could see Martha buying into the idea that God gives with one hand and takes away with the other, so I don't know ... I don't have difficulty imagining her still taking Clark in even if the meteors killed Jon.

But I expect she would seriously resent having to go to her dad because he hated Jonathan so much.

Nah. Martha's really pragmatic and again, canonically, she seems to have gotten over Jonathan's death just fine. She might not be chipper about going to her dad, but she'd do it if she had to and they'd probably eventually reach some kind of rapproachment with each other.

[identity profile] bop-radar.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 12:43 am (UTC)(link)
I can believe she'd find Clark to be a sufficient silver-lining for the meteor shower causing Jon's death
So can I, actually, but I'm happy enough to alter my scenario to suit... Although I agree that Martha's pragmatic and likely to buy into the romance of god 'giving with one hand, taking away with the other'.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 12:49 am (UTC)(link)
You think? I mean, Martha's great love for Jon hasn't stopped her from rubbing all over Lionel (metaphorically), so I can believe she'd find Clark to be a sufficient silver-lining for the meteor shower causing Jon's death. Especially given that it's really not at all right or fair to blame Clark for that, first of all, and second, because she wanted a child so much

Yes, but it's the TIMING I think is crucial. If Jon died in the meteor shower, presumably it's when the meteor hit the truck, and so in my head she's freaking out and trying to get him to the hospital and the kid shows up. Now, maybe she just scoops up the kid and takes him with her, but if she goes and investigates and finds the ship first....I think that even if it's not logical or fair, she's still likely to associate this alien kid with Jon's death.

Though the "God giving with one hand and taking with the other" is another possible response, I suppose. But I still think she might view Clark as a mixed blessing--like she made a wish to fairy Lana, and the price of her beautiful son was her beloved husband.

Maybe I just have a darker view of Martha than everyone else?

[identity profile] latxcvi.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 01:58 am (UTC)(link)
Maybe I just have a darker view of Martha than everyone else?

Possibly, but I'm just thinking about how Martha reacted to the loss of the baby back in Exodus/Exile/Phoenix. I remember back during that summer between Exodus and Exile, a big question for a lot of people was "How does Martha feel about Clark's role in the baby's death?" Because it certainly looked like Jonathan blamed him for it, but we hadn't heard Martha's thoughts. And I remember there were people who thought it would be really interesting, if dark, character development if she had blamed Clark for it, particularly given that there was such a clear line of causation between Clark's volitional conduct and her miscarriage -- had Clark not blown up the storm cellar, in part because of a failure on his part to even contemplate the foreseeable possible consequences of trying to destroy the ship, Jonathan and Martha wouldn't have gotten caught in that shockwave and the shockwave is what caused the truck to flip and Martha to miscarry. There were an almost equal number of people who thought it would be terrible for Martha to blame Clark because while yes, his conduct caused the situation, his intention was not to cause that level of destruction/damage.

Phoenix made it clear that Martha did not blame Clark for it. Even though she could have. Even though the line of causation was direct enough she wouldn't have even been irrational OR unfair had she done so. So for me, the fact that she didn't blame him for something that she would have been within her rights to do so because it was the direct result of his volitional conduct strongly suggests that she wouldn't hold something against him that, as a toddler, he clearly had no control over.

Now, maybe it's a backwards way of looking at it because as of Phoenix Clark had been her son for 14 years and he was a stranger to her in the Pilot, but still. He was a toddler; he couldn't possibly be held accountable for the meteor shower. Even if she investigated and found out he came with the meteors, I just can't wrap my mind around the idea of her blaming him for it.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 02:29 am (UTC)(link)
Now, maybe it's a backwards way of looking at it because as of Phoenix Clark had been her son for 14 years and he was a stranger to her in the Pilot, but still. He was a toddler; he couldn't possibly be held accountable for the meteor shower. Even if she investigated and found out he came with the meteors, I just can't wrap my mind around the idea of her blaming him for it.

I'm not sure she would have to *consciously blame* the little alien toddler for Jon's death, you know, for Jon's death to affect the way she treated Clark. If a puppy ran across the street and your husband swerved to avoid it and died, you wouldn't blame the puppy, but you might not want to take it home and adopt it, either.

But even assuming she doesn't blame Clark *at all*, and ends up adopting him--that doesn't mean she wouldn't feel that deranged sense of responsibility people often feel when their loved ones die, and that perhaps somehow by wanting a child so much she was responsible for Jon's death, because she only got Clark via the meteor shower.

I can't remember the Martha-Clark scene in Phoenix very well--do they actually talk about the miscarriage, or does Martha just issue blanket forgiveness for everything (Clark running away, what Jonathan had to do to bring Clark back, etc.)?

[identity profile] latxcvi.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 02:43 am (UTC)(link)
I can't remember the Martha-Clark scene in Phoenix very well--do they actually talk about the miscarriage, or does Martha just issue blanket forgiveness for everything (Clark running away, what Jonathan had to do to bring Clark back, etc.)?

Clark starts to bring it up to apologize -- I think he even gets as far as saying something about "the baby" -- and she cuts him off with something along the lines of "We never blamed you." I remember it because it was kind of a Thing in the fandom at the time because after the ep aired, there were quite a few ep reviews where people were basically all, "Um, Jonathan sure as hell did!"

A behind-the-scenes anecdote: Apparently, there was talk amongst the creative team of going for the darker version, where Martha did hold Clark accountable and Annette O'Toole was appalled at the suggestion; she didn't think that was at all true to the Clark-Martha dynamic. So Annette is kind of responsible for how it goes down in Phoenix. She was apparently quite adamant that Martha not be portrayed as blaming Clark in any way for the loss of the baby.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 02:57 am (UTC)(link)
Yay for AOT! Believe me, the Martha I would *like* to believe in is the all-forgiving Martha of "Phoenix"--I wonder how much my own doubts about Martha are based on some of her inexplicable decisions in seasons 5 and 6.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 12:06 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, p.s. That icon is HILARIOUS!!

[identity profile] mobiusklein.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 10:50 pm (UTC)(link)
What is your goal?

Making Lionel and Bo die/disappear during the meteor shower

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?

I’ll do a Carrie and make them croak. (in the book, she telekinetically gets her mom’s heart to stop)

What do you think the effect of your change will be?

Best case scenario: Without Lionel, Lex would grow up less screwed up and w/o the Julian scenario, he would be a lot less traumatized since he would not be incessantly blamed for something he didn’t do and can’t even remember.

Spared a few years of miserable marriage to Lionel, Lillian might not suck as much as a person. Pamela would not have been fired and might have softened some of Lillian’s hard edges. In any case, Lillian would’ve died and left Lex an orphan presumably to be taken care of by Pamela as Pamela and Lillian seemed to be close enough to threaten Lionel.

Clark wouldn’t have picked up so many bad habits from Bo though I rather have horrible ideas of the kind of man Ma Kent would marry to replace him. .

W/o the Julian incident and Lionel dead, Lex might’ve been able to stay at home and got to stay the hell away from Oliver Quinn and his gang o’ goons.

What might be the unintended consequences?

Worst case scenario: Lillian isn’t exactly the greatest parent either so he might still be whack. She might also marry a Lionel clone though hopefully she’ll get someone better than Lionel in the parenting arena. I doubt it would be worse as again, there would be no Julian incident and presumably he wouldn’t have been sent away to Excelsior where his life continued to suck even more.

She may not send Lex to Smallville for the fateful meeting by the bridge.

She may or may not have helped with the adoption of Clark. If she had, things might be complicated in a different way though she doesn’t appear as curious as Lionel or interested in the plot rocks from outer space.

I'll try to do one where Lana's parents don't get pancaked.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 11:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I like your projected outcomes for Lex, and they seem realistic to me. As I was saying above to [livejournal.com profile] bop_radar, though, who also wanted Jonathan killed by the meteors, it seems unlikely to me that Martha would adopt an alien baby who came with the same meteor shower that killed her husband. However much the viewers might hate Jonathan, Martha loves him and his death would be traumatic for her. And depending on exactly when/where Jonathan was killed, she might not even encounter Clark--she might have been to busy trying to get Jonathan to the hospital to even help him. Or she might have taken him along, but been too frantic about Jonathan to even investigate and find the spaceship, so someone would have found it.

[identity profile] mobiusklein.livejournal.com 2006-12-12 11:53 pm (UTC)(link)
What is your goal?

Believe it or not, save the pancakes aka Lana’s parents.

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?

Telekinesis. I’ll just move them fifty feet to one side.

What do you think the effect of your change will be?

Honestly, I think that with her parents alive, she wouldn’t be on the cover of the Time magazine. Also, she wouldn’t be known and pitied as an orphan or be wearing that horrible little necklace which I still think made her into a freak with the “pity power.”

I think that a lot of Clark’s interest initially was her unavailability due to her necklace and pity/guilt for the meteor that whacked her parents. I think that w/o them, she wouldn’t have stood out quite so much and Clark would’ve found out a lot sooner that she’s not the perfect saint that he thought she was for such a long time. Clana would’ve happened sooner and burned out faster as she would show that she’s not as interested in the stuff he comes to be interested in and probably starts getting a roving eye. W/o Lana’s previous history of woe, I think Clark might’ve grown up a lot sooner.

I also think that Lana wouldn’t be able to demand perfection from loved ones since she wouldn’t have idolized a memory to the point where love = being flawless. With a father figure in her life, maybe she wouldn’t keep hopping from guy to guy to guy. Having a flesh and blood father and mother doing imperfect things and screwing up would give her a more reasonable expectations of what a relationship is really like or at least make her realize that nothing is perfect. She wouldn’t be able to blame everything on being an orphan or have the deep-seated abandonment issues or at least she would have been forced to own them. The thing about Aunt Nell is that Lana got to think “My parents would be better/more honest/more understanding/more loving” and without that, she’d have to face some hard facts of life sooner.

I like to think that if her parents had decided to move out of Metropolis to keep her from being stalked, she would simply have gone with them or that Chloe wouldn’t have opened her house to her considering that it was her PARENTS telling her to pack, not simply her aunt.

Without the dead parents thing, I don’t think she would’ve taken on the Talon but just continued just being a regular high school girl for the most part since she did say that it was her parents’ history that inspired her to reopen it.

What might be the unintended consequences?

I think Nell might’ve been happier and found a guy w/o Lana. Perhaps she could’ve made a move on Lionel once Lillian was dead. Hmmm . . .

Lana’s parents could have divorced and Lana’s mom might’ve married Henry Small. Depending on custody battle, Lana might be Lana Small or Lana Lang. It would’ve gotten a bit messy.

Without Lana, I’d like to think Clark & Lex would have talked about different and other things than her. Also, I’d like to think with a more honest/realistic view of Lana, Clark would have been able to have a more varied romantic life including Chlark, not necessarily but possibly.

The show would’ve actually improved as Lana would hopefully have parents who did view her as a human being and not someone to worship. It would’ve been nice to see her yelled at, grounded, etc.

If her parents were stupid enough to want to stay in SV and let her get stalked over and over again, well not sure how to change that. Maybe they’d get killed trying to protect her or may end up just being more proactive about protecting her. I’d like to think they’d move.

I’d like to think her parents wouldn’t be indulgent enough to let her go to Paris and get involved in the stone arc of S4.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 12:03 am (UTC)(link)
I agree that Lana's parents being alive would solve a *lot* of problems. I agree with you that a lot of her more annoying qualities, like her constant need for a backup boyfriend and her abandonment issues, are due to the fact that she's an orphan. And if she wasn't an orphan, she wouldn't have been the town princess, with the twin entitlement/pedestal issues.

In fact, I doubt she would have been the target for all the mutants, since she wouldn't have been the center of attention that came with being the iconic meteor shower victim, and she wouldn't have worn the necklace that I think drew all the mutants to her. Like you say, she would have been just a regular high school girl.

Though you terrify me with the prospect of Nell possibly marrying Lionel!

[identity profile] latxcvi.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 02:13 am (UTC)(link)
Though you terrify me with the prospect of Nell possibly marrying Lionel!

Oh, gurl ... In the original 'notes' for the show, the connection between Nell and Lionel, the idea that they were long-standing friends and possibly even had a romantic past together, was much more explicitly acknowledged (likewise, Lana's fascination with Lex; you heard that right -- Lana was originally supposed to be fascinated by Lex because he represented the world outside of Smallville that she was curious about/craving to experience). You can still see glimmers of the Nell/Lionel connection in some of the earlier episodes (Lana and Nell were visiting the Luthor penthouse when Lana caught Lex skinny-dipping and, in one of the very early episodes, either Lana or Whitney mentions that Nell sold Lionel a ton of land), but the original concept was that they had a long and varied history with each other.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 02:32 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, yeah, I assumed they were supposed to have been lovers (and that's why Lana had been staying at Lex's house, and why Nell could so blithely throw Lana's birthday party in the manor), but marriage? Blech.

Though I guess it would have prevented the Lexana, if they were step-siblings!

[identity profile] acampbell.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 04:29 am (UTC)(link)
I even read that in the original story outline, Lex and Nell were having an affair when he first moved to Smallville! It's in one of my SV books, companions.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 04:31 am (UTC)(link)
Ok, THAT grosses me out. I can deal with Lionel sleeping with Lex's girlfriends, because he's evil, but for Lex to sleep with Lionel's exes is just...blech.

[identity profile] acampbell.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 04:37 am (UTC)(link)
Would it be okay if I came back tomorrow and did another one? I just thought of something else I'd like to remedy. Or would you prefer we limit answers to one per person?

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 04:46 am (UTC)(link)
Do as many as you'd like! Well, ok, if you hit 100 I might suggest you take it to your own journal. :D I think the more scenarios, the better. Heck, we might even inspire some new stories or vids or something.

[identity profile] acampbell.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 02:22 pm (UTC)(link)
This was a fun activity. Thanks for suggesting it for us! I might write more down the road--surely not 100, though! I can put them in my own LJ, crediting you for the idea.

[identity profile] acampbell.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 12:32 am (UTC)(link)
What is your goal?

To get Lex more support and comfort from the Kents than he got in “Shattered”.

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?

Have a conversation with Martha Kent about how Lex just really needs to be tucked up in a cozy bed (Clark’s will do, since they don’t have a guest room), fed (chicken soup and cold milk would be a reasonable choice), and given a chance to cuddle up with Clark and get a good night’s sleep. If she protested, I would remind her that the Kents have been quick to extend hospitality to every other Tom, Dick or Harry who crosses their paths, and that they should be willing to offer it to Lex, who has been a friend of Clark’s for at least two years. Sure, Jonathan has issues with the Luthors, and Lex is a little too curious for his, and Clark’s, own good. But none of their other guests has been perfect, either.

If she was still reluctant, I would point out that, if it weren’t for Lex, she, her husband, and their son would have lost their farm and be living in the Talon apartment. I would also remind her that Lex lost his mother as a teenager and asked for nothing more than to be considered part of the family, and that, so far, the Kent family hasn’t done a very good job in honoring that request.

What do you think the effect of your change will be?

It would have kept Lex and Clark from running off to the sweat shop and kept Lex from getting increasingly upset and irrational. It would have gotten Lex some much needed rest and a feeling of security, however brief. It would have been an extremely positive development in his relations with the Kent family. The only bad thing is: Lana wouldn’t have been trampled in the stables.

What might be the unintended consequences?

Well, for the show, I’m not sure. It would probably have diverted or at least slowed most of the other events in the ep. It would have kept Clark from having to shoulder the burden of caring for and controlling Lex all by himself. It would have demonstrated to Lionel that Lex had the support of friends. It would have been good for the Kents. For those of us in fandom who have complained most stridently that the Kents never offered Lex any support to speak of, it would have largely shut us up. It would have taken very little to convince us that the Kents valued Lex as a person and a friend--but, after “Shattered,” a good number of us were alienated from them because of their reaction to Lex and his predicament in this episode.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 01:03 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, I like this one very, very much. It would have been very good for Clark and Lex, even if they were ultimately unable to prevent Lionel from institutionalizing Lex. And maybe if Clark had had his parents' support early on, he would have been able to help Lex more later.

And as a viewer, I would have loved it. I agree that the Asylum/ Shattered arc made me really angry at Jonathan and Martha for a long time.

[identity profile] acampbell.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 02:24 pm (UTC)(link)
And I just realized, reading over, I broke one of your major rules. I wouldn't have been able to have a conversation with Martha. Hmm. I wonder how I could do that differently!

Sorry about that!

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 03:01 pm (UTC)(link)
Huh? You can have a conversation with someone, according to the rules, as long as you don't physically change anything--you just can't both have a conversation with someone AND physically change something.
ciaan: (notice when you begin to disappear)

[personal profile] ciaan 2006-12-13 12:56 am (UTC)(link)
Hmmm umm. Other people have given a lot of really great answers!

I might just go have sex with Lex for an hour, indeed. There are certainly times in his life when he'd go for that.

What is your goal? Get Lex and Clark together and honest with each other, so that both are better people and the world is a happier place.

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?

a) Go back to some point in S1 or early S2 (am not sure off the top of my head when would be best), and tell Lex that Clark is an alien. Explain to him why Clark hasn't told him. Explain to him that he needs to break it to Clark gently that he's figured this all out. I might well have to use my knowledge of the future/Lex's deep dark secrets to convince him that I speak the truth.

b) Arrange it so that Lionel found the spaceship and baby Kal-El instead of Jonathan and Martha. Score!

What do you think the effect of your change will be?

a) I think if Lex, at that point, when he was a nice guy and when he wanted to be good and when Clark liked and trusted him, had told Clark that he already knew and that he got it, and opened up to Clark a bit himself, it could have all worked out. Awwww.

b) Well, the Clex would be brothers, and Lex would have always known Clark's secret. Awwwww.

What might be the unintended consequences?

a) No worse than the show, I think, unless you believe it would be inevitable even from then for Lex to turn evil, and him knowing Clark's secret would just put the whole world in danger. I mean, the only bad consequence would be a possible earlier rift if they fucked things up.

b) Odds are actually better than Clark would end up in a lab, experimented on from the day he arrived on this planet, totally messed up and with his intelligence ruined, or maybe trained to be a thoughtlessly obedient killing machine. Then Lionel could raise Lex to be even eviler from early on, or discard him as weak. Oh well, sucks to be everyone!

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 01:10 am (UTC)(link)
I'm telling you, if Lex was busy having sex with his umpty gazillion fangirls and boys, he wouldn't have *time* to go evil! Seems like a good plan to me.

I've thought about option (a) a lot myself. I'm just not sure it would be enough for Lex to know the secret--I think he doesn't just want to know the truth, he wants Clark to tell him the truth, you know? But on the other hand, he is the older and more mature one--maybe he could deal. And once Clark knew he knew, things would be a lot better for Clark. He really needed a confidante who was not his parents, when he was younger.

You made me laugh and laugh with the unintended consequences of option B (and I frankly think all those things are very likely, if Lionel really did find Clark). Sucks to be everyone! Hee hee hee!
ciaan: revolution (happy)

[personal profile] ciaan 2006-12-13 01:42 am (UTC)(link)
Yis! The plan to save the world by everyone taking turns having sex with Lex! I'm in. :)

I quite agree that what Lex wants most is for Clark to tell him. Sooo hmm. Maybe I could find a time when he ALMOST sees Clark being super, and push events so that he actually DOES see it, and then Clark could confess to all the details. Sigh. I know there's a right time somewhere! It would make everything so much better for the both of them. (Dude! Can I have the mutant power of projecting illusions? I would project an illusion that claimed to be future-Clark, realizing his mistake and coming back in time to tell Lex and save the world!)

As for B, yeah, in my AU it was totally Lillian's idea to raise Lian as their son. Not Lionel's idea at all. And there is also an alternate timeline story that does have him as a lab rat. It is sad. :(

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 02:02 am (UTC)(link)
I like your mutant power, and it is quite a sneaky way to get around the rules, so you totally get to have it!

You know, you could have the Clex/brothers raised by Lillian thing if you simply arranged, via your other mutant ability, to have the spaceship crashland on Lionel, unfortunately killing him. (Ok, then the momentum of the spaceship would have to carry it further away so it wasn't obvious that it killed Lionel, or else Lillian would probably be less favorably inclined toward Clark).

I was thinking about it, and we fangirlz are really very selfless, volunteering our time to prevent Lex from evil world domination. I think we deserve sex with Lex AND medals of valor, or something. :D
ciaan: (it's too good to be true)

[personal profile] ciaan 2006-12-13 09:20 pm (UTC)(link)
It is such a sacrifice, having sex with Lex. Clearly medals are in order to ease the pain.

However, if the spaceship killed Lionle in the shower, that would leave Lex knocked out/in shock and baby Kal-El wandering around, and no adults to pick them up, unless the Kents or the Rosses got there. So no go, I think. But you could try to dose Lionel with kryptonite radiation, causing him to become a mutant with one of the mutations that kills the person. Or get cancer. Hepatic disease of the liver show up earlier. Something like that, that makes him kick the bucket before Lillian. Or have Lillian come along for the trip to Smallville and get dosed up with k rays, and that could save her life. Plus, Lillian with powers would be awesome.

I think a lot of it comes down to whether you believe Lillian was nice or ruthless, sane or crazy, etc. I personally am a fan of crazy ruthless Lillian.

[identity profile] latxcvi.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 01:39 am (UTC)(link)
What's your goal?

To remove Lex from the sphere of Lionel's influence.

How would you achieve it?

With my special KryptoNorwich powers, I would kill Lionel in the first meteor shower. The Rosses could find wee!Lex in their cornfield and return him, somehow, to Lillian.

What do you think the effect of your change will be?

With Lionel dead, Lillian is the primary influence on Lex's life until her death, at which time Pamela takes over. With Lionel dead, Lillian never has Julian, so there's not the twin spiral into despair occasioned by her illness coupled with post-partum psychosis/depression. So while she'd still be dying, she wouldn't have necessarily become unstable; she could have been the steadying influence to Non-Sociopathy that Lex needed. Lex could still end up ruling the world -- Lillian did give him that Napoleon-coin watch, so she's not entirely without her own empire-building impulses -- but he'd be a genuinely benevolent dictator under her/Pamela's influence.

What might be the unintended consequences?

The biggest might be that Lex never meets Clark, but I see no reason why Lillian couldn't still send him to Smallville to run the factory (which she bought from the Rosses on a whim as the means of thanking them for returning her son to her and then turned into a business memorial to Lionel). Lex's interest in Clark might not have taken a turn into destructive obsessiveness, since I imagine Lillian could/would have instilled in him the idea that just because you want something/want to know it, doesn't mean you automatically have a right to it no matter what. Without Lex's outsized sense of entitlement to Clark's Secret(s), the dynamic of their relationship would have been different enough that eventually Clark might have seriously contemplated entrusting Lex with the information (I'm still not sure he'd actually do it, but I think he'd be more likely to contemplate the possibility that doing so would not automatically equal disaster, whereas canon!Clark has always seemed terrified to do so, with the exception of Asylum).

The senior Kents might have been forced to mend fences with Grandpa Clark a lot sooner since they would have needed his help to adopt Clark. Having a pragmatic granddad who nevertheless took pleasure in spoiling him might have been good for Clark.

Pete wouldn't have hated Lex, since Lillian would have paid the Rosses the fair market value for their property. So the dynamic between Clark and Pete over Lex would have been different and Lex and Pete might have forged a friendship with each that made it possible for fans to actually envision them as the iconic presidential running mates they're allegedly destined to be.

Since Lex's upbringing would likely have been more loving and emotionally normative without Lionel's presence, so he'd likely be less obsessively envious of Clark's life and thus, we'd never get that horrible moment from Vessel where he's all "Only friends with you so I could be in UR life, stealin' UR girlz!"

Adam would have stayed dead and Emily would never have been cloned, but those are small prices to pay for a Lex who doesn't end up with a black hole where his soul should be.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 01:56 am (UTC)(link)
Ok, given that we basically have the same goal, your method is much more efficient than mine. And more likely to work, too.

The Rosses could find wee!Lex in their cornfield and return him, somehow, to Lillian.

You know, I was just thinking about this the other day. What the hell happened to the Rosses? There they were, negotiating with Lionel, and suddenly they were gone, and Lionel's standing alone on a flattened field. Did they just drive away and leave him there when the meteors started falling?

ith Lionel dead, Lillian never has Julian, so there's not the twin spiral into despair occasioned by her illness coupled with post-partum psychosis/depression. So while she'd still be dying, she wouldn't have necessarily become unstable; she could have been the steadying influence to Non-Sociopathy that Lex needed. Lex could still end up ruling the world -- Lillian did give him that Napoleon-coin watch, so she's not entirely without her own empire-building impulses -- but he'd be a genuinely benevolent dictator under her/Pamela's influence.

Yes, that makes a lot of sense to me. (I hope Lillian *does* have empire-building skills, actually--at least enough to keep the empire going long enough so there's money left for Pamela to raise Lex).

The senior Kents might have been forced to mend fences with Grandpa Clark a lot sooner since they would have needed his help to adopt Clark. Having a pragmatic granddad who nevertheless took pleasure in spoiling him might have been good for Clark.

I really like this part of your scenario. I was just talking to [livejournal.com profile] huzzlewhat about how one of the things I hold against Jonathan Kent is the way he estranged Martha from her family. To be sure, she must have been complicit in this, but I really like the idea of Jonathan and Grandpa Clark having to make up--if nothing else, it sets a better example for Clark.

Pete wouldn't have hated Lex, since Lillian would have paid the Rosses the fair market value for their property. So the dynamic between Clark and Pete over Lex would have been different and Lex and Pete might have forged a friendship with each that made it possible for fans to actually envision them as the iconic presidential running mates they're allegedly destined to be.

I would love it if Pete and Lex were friends--in fact, it would be interesting if Lex were Pete's friend first , before he was Clark's, because of the family connection. That would put an interesting spin on the dynamic.

However, I do have to say that the idea of Pete and Lex being enemies and running mates is not really much of a stretch in politics. I mean, I know it's comics canon that Lex runs as an independent, but that's really just because the comics don't want to get to involved in politics. Realistically, if Lex was running for either of the major parties, his running mate is likely to be the opponent from the primaries who got the most support--so that really seems like a plausible scenario for Pete and Lex to be running together even though they hate each other.

Adam would have stayed dead and Emily would never have been cloned, but those are small prices to pay for a Lex who doesn't end up with a black hole where his soul should be.

Especially since Adam just died anyway and Emily was being raised like a pet.

[identity profile] latxcvi.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 02:35 am (UTC)(link)
What the hell happened to the Rosses? There they were, negotiating with Lionel, and suddenly they were gone, and Lionel's standing alone on a flattened field. Did they just drive away and leave him there when the meteors started falling?

Yes, it's ... odd that they apparently aren't helping Lionel look for wee!Lex although I suppose we could fanwank it that they went in a different direction from him to look. Alternatively, it was such a sudden yet clearly catastrophic event that Lionel may very well have told them to go ensure their own family was safe. Lionel is not entirely without actual human impulses and given his own frantic searching, he probably would have understood the Ross men wanting to make sure their loved ones were safe.

You know the other way the Rosses kill me? The whole "he cheated us out of our creamed corn factory" business. Because I've never been able to understand how they didn't know the worth of their own business. Particularly not if they'd undertaken the task of trying to sell it. Wouldn't ascertaining its actual worth be one of the things you'd do initially in that situation? And I have trouble with the idea that the contract was somehow over their heads since there was, canonically, a lawyer in the family (there may even be two; we know that Pete's mom is a licensed attorney because she couldn't be a judge without being a licensed attorney first; in Rogue it's "Bill Ross" that Jonathan calls when he gets into trouble for allegedly killing someone). Seriously, if Mrs. Ross is on the District/Circuit Court as of S3's Whisper, then she was a practicing attorney at the time of the meteor shower. Even if she was a litigator and somehow didn't feel qualified to review it herself, I refuse to believe she didn't have at least one professional colleague familiar with contract law who could have looked that thing over to ascertain whether it was hinky. So I've really never undersood the Rosses' claim that Lionel "cheated" them out of their factory. If they (a) didn't know how much their own property/business was worth and (b) didn't have the sense to avail themselves of the services of the lawyer(s) in the family to review the mechanism of the sale, that's hardly Lionel's fault (and you know I never willingly say that!). I always rolled my eyes when Pete - or Jonathan -- brought it up.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 02:53 am (UTC)(link)
Wow. Twice in one comment you have said nice things about Lionel. I have to pause a bit to mark this moment in the historical record.

:D

I was going to say that I think it was just Pete who said that the Rosses were cheated by the Luthors, and that could just be a bit of family prejudice/lore he picked up without really knowing any specifics. But of course it's a pivotal plot point in "Lineage" that Jonathan betrayed his friends by convincing them to sell to Lionel, presumably for under market value, isn't it. Hmm. It does seem odd that people in a family full of lawyers would take the advice of their friend the failing farmer over that of their relatives.

Or is Jonathan's attempt to convince the Rosses to sell supposed to be evil just because it gave Lionel a foothold in Smallville?

[identity profile] latxcvi.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 03:45 am (UTC)(link)
Wow. Twice in one comment you have said nice things about Lionel. I have to pause a bit to mark this moment in the historical record.

There was a time, waaaaaaay back in the day, when I was sympathetic to and even liked Lionel. Sometimes, those memories bleed through. ;-)

But of course it's a pivotal plot point in "Lineage" that Jonathan betrayed his friends by convincing them to sell to Lionel, presumably for under market value, isn't it.

*nod* And like I said to Pep, I think "cheating" does strongly imply that's what happened -- he bought it for less than it was really worth, but that just brings me back to "The Rosses should have known what their own property/business was worth."

Or is Jonathan's attempt to convince the Rosses to sell supposed to be evil just because it gave Lionel a foothold in Smallville?

I think that's really what it is, but maybe back then the creative team felt like that was too subtle a point, so it had to be couched in terms of something Lionel himself actively did? In other words, just saying "Lionel got a foothold in Smallville and that's been bad," is a hard point to make when your own internal storytelling suggests that his business is the single largest employer in the town. But if you combine it with the suggestion that Lionel got that foothold through unethical or dubious means, the assertion gets stronger.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 04:54 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, season 1 and early season 2 Lionel, back before you were a confirmed sociopath! I miss you!

Meanwhile, I suppose the charitable thing to think about the Rosses is not that they were total morons, but that Jonathan felt guilty for giving Lionel a foothold in Smallville, and when Lionel's crap factory became successful Pete's uncles bitched about it and it became this huge overblown thing in Pete's mind when it wasn't, really.

[identity profile] pep-singer.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 03:07 am (UTC)(link)
The thinking behind the whole Ross's ordeal was just ridiculous. As you said, there were lawyers in the family, and if they didn't understand the contract, why in hell didn't they either have someone look it over or simply not sign at all?

[identity profile] latxcvi.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 03:32 am (UTC)(link)
Right. Without more than "Lionel Luthor cheated us[/them] out of the creamed corn factory," it's hard to know what he actually did. Like I said to Nora, if it was buying it for less than it was actually worth (and that's certainly what I think the term "cheating" implies to most people), then it's not Lionel's fault that the Rosses didn't bother to get an accounting of what the business was worth before they undertook selling it1. If there was some kind of double- or triple-speak in the contract, well, they had at least one and possibly two family members who could have reviewed it if the two gentlemen we saw in the pilot didn't understand everything they were reading.

I have no trouble with the idea that Lionel's general business practices weren't always ethical or above-board. But since there's never been any actual explanation of exactly what he did to the Rosses that was so wrong or unfair, I've always had a hard time understanding Pete and Jon's anger about it. All the ways I can think of Lionel "cheating" depend on the Rosses being kind of ... willfully ignorant, and that makes it hard for me to blame Lionel for how it went down.

1. I'm certain businessman!Lionel's never bought anything without having it examined/appraised, so yeah, I can believe that he had his accountants look into the factory and possibly learned that it was worth more/generated more profit than was reflected in the Rosses' asking price. And while yeah, the most honorable thing to do in that situation would be to tell them, "Huh, my people say it's worth more than you're asking for it," it's not necessarily dishonorable that he failed to do this. At the end of the day, the onus is on the seller to set the initial price, so that means it was the Rosses' responsibility to know exactly how much they should have asked.

[identity profile] slinkling.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 09:44 pm (UTC)(link)
Here's a what-if: What if the repeated references to Lionel "cheating" the Rosses out of their creamed corn factory has nothing to do with what he paid for it, but rather with the fact that he bought it at all, and then leveled it and turned it into a fertilizer plant?

In the deleted scene from the pilot, the Rosses really didn't seem happy about the prospect of selling to Lionel. Maybe they were considering it (because he wanted property in the area), just didn't like the man and decided they didn't want him to have their factory, and then Jonathan Kent persuaded them that Lionel really wasn't so bad? And maybe Lionel assured them that he would carry on in the fine Ross tradition, but kept the language of the contract vague with regard to how he would dispose of the factory once it was his -- and then, as soon as he took possession, he fired their workers and bulldozed the place and built a plant that's been leaking pollution into the Smallville groundwater ever since.

I realize this is a whole lotta fanwank, but it might be a way to reconcile canon with itself.

[identity profile] pepperjackcandy.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 10:56 pm (UTC)(link)
You know the other way the Rosses kill me? [snip] I always rolled my eyes when Pete - or Jonathan -- brought it up.

Oh, amen to all of this! :flails:

[identity profile] jakrar.livejournal.com 2006-12-15 03:19 am (UTC)(link)
Love your idea, but I feel compelled to quibble with your apparent interpretation of that moment in "Vessel." It seemed clear to me that Lex -- still secretly obsessed with and in love with Clark -- was desperate to know whether Clark really did hate and/or fear him enough to be willing to kill him. So he was deliberately pushing all Clark's buttons by saying everything he could think of, true or not, to infuriate Clark to the breaking point and beyond, just to see for himself what Clark would do. Hence the obvious lie about only being friends with Clark because he wanted what Clark had.

[identity profile] latxcvi.livejournal.com 2006-12-15 08:33 pm (UTC)(link)
It seemed clear to me that Lex -- still secretly obsessed with and in love with Clark -- was desperate to know whether Clark really did hate and/or fear him enough to be willing to kill him. So he was deliberately pushing all Clark's buttons by saying everything he could think of, true or not, to infuriate Clark to the breaking point and beyond, just to see for himself what Clark would do.

Sorry, but my reading of Lex at that point isn't as, um, charitable. I think he really is angry at Clark, I think he's partly calling Clark out as a hypocrite and I think he really was jealous of Clark's life -- Lexmas strongly suggests as much. My big issue with what Lex says in that scene is that it sounds like he was only ever friends because he was jealous of Clark's life. I don't believe that that's true or borne out by the canon of S1 through S3. Lex crawled through his own blood in an attempt to get to Clark in Asylum; that's just not something you do for someone with whom you're only pretending to be friends because you're envious of them. So. That's the extent to which I don't like what Lex says in Vessel. But I don't read that moment, at all, as desperate-and-in-love!Lex just trying to push Clark's buttons to see how far he'll go. I read it as a very pissed off Lex who's largely disappointed in Clark and is pushing Clark's buttons because he can and it makes him (Lex) feel better.

[identity profile] jakrar.livejournal.com 2006-12-16 09:26 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, I admit that Lex is also angry with Clark in that scene, and with good reason: Clark has, at that point, been an absolute bastard to Lex for quite some time. And, yes, Lex has envied some aspects of Clark's life, as I think he's previously admitted. But the "Vessel" scene in question -- as you've said above -- implies that Lex only ever pretended to be Clark's friend because he envied Clark's life, and that is clearly and laughably untrue. So I guess, in a sense, we agree...if only to a certain point.

[identity profile] mshydehj7.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 02:25 am (UTC)(link)
I would love to play, but sadly, I'm only one eppy into the second season! I don't know much of the whole story thus far to play, but fun!! Can I snag to use in another fandom?

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 02:32 am (UTC)(link)
Absolutely!

[identity profile] pep-singer.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 02:47 am (UTC)(link)
What is your goal?

I want to show how Clark and Lana never would have stayed together, even if the proposal had stuck in "Reckoning" and she knew his secret.

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?

I would have the power of damaging electronical devices so Lana would never receive the phone call from Lex.

What do you think the effect of your change will be?

I think they would have been engaged, but during the time before the wedding, Clark's constant need to save other people would annoy her because she thinks she should become first in Clark's life. And I think she wouldn't have been too thrileld with all of the talking between Clark and Chloe since she would feel that he could talk to her now that she knew the secret. Plus, it would have allowed Clark to move away from Lana with a clearer and sound mind by not having the "what if?" factor hanging over their relationship.

What might be the unintended consequences?

That Chloe might think that Clark doesn't need her anymore, which I think would be untrue.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 03:08 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, what a smart goal! And one would hope that giving Lana more time to deal with knowing Clark's secret would make her a better secret keeper, too.

And I think you're probably right, that Clark and Lana had a lot of other issues besides his secret that would drive them apart eventually, once Lana had time to get over the fairy-tale proposal.
treetracer: (godzilla/smallville OTP)

[personal profile] treetracer 2006-12-13 04:06 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, awesome game!

What is your goal?
Clark does not abandon Lex at the end of Shattered, but sticks with him, helps him.

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?
I'm thinking coversation a la' the caves of contrivance: today the part of Jor-El is played by the wise and benevolent [livejournal.com profile] treetracer: Kal-El, Lex Luthor will soon see you as you are, the last son of Krypton possessed of a might and strength surpassing that of any human. In that moment, you will remember the voices of those who raised you saying 'hide away, flee discovery'.

It is here you must embrace your destiny as a leader, save Lex Luthor from his father and in doing so save your family, your friends and the world from a far worse fate.


Clark: Huh?

Standin!Jor-El: Save Lex Luthor from his father and from himself. In this you will become a hero among men.

Clark: uh, ok.

What do you think the effect of your change will be?
Clark stops the car from hitting Lex, sees that Lex *knows*, and bam! right there steps up to the plate, takes responsibility for *who he is*, *what he's done*, and more importantly, what he can *do*. He spirits Lex away from the pysch doctor and together they hide out, get Toby to detox Lex on the side, and plan their return to Smallville.

What might be the unintended consequences?
1. Clark might subvert his destiny as world protector to *Lex's* protector; taking his father's words *so* seriously that he perceives any threat to Lex as a ripple effect threat to the world.

2. Lex doesn't get his brain zapped and remembers *everything.* Does he become bitter and plot revenge against his father, or does he let Clark influence him back to the good side?

3. Lionel targets the Kents to get to Clark to get to Lex.

Dude, this almost makes me want to write SV again. :-)

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 04:15 am (UTC)(link)
You know, you practically *have* written the story already. You have an outline, you have dialogue--it's practically done!

::Puppy eyes::

The wise and benevolent [livejournal.com profile] treetracer does an excellent Jor-El, by the way.

However, I am hoping Lex has had the sense to stash evidence of his dad's misdeeds somewhere, or else I fear Clark and Lex will be on the run for a while.
treetracer: (clex 4ever)

[personal profile] treetracer 2006-12-16 06:30 am (UTC)(link)
Hmm, good point re: the evidence. I think someone's written a short story along the lines of Clark taking Lex away; I've actually started something that parallels this but keeps the Shattered/Asylum canon, a WiP called Promises to Keep. (which I haven't touched in ages, bad me!)

Maybe for your follow up to your famous game you should have a What If fic challenge...I'd love to see all the ways Lana bites the dust. ^_~

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-17 09:30 pm (UTC)(link)
You know there is currently a whole community dedicated to that, right? [livejournal.com profile] kill_lana_lang

[identity profile] jakrar.livejournal.com 2006-12-15 02:17 pm (UTC)(link)
I would LOVE it if you were to write this!
treetracer: (Default)

[personal profile] treetracer 2006-12-16 06:48 am (UTC)(link)
It's been awhile since I've written, but thanks for the vote of confidence! :-)

[identity profile] teenygozer.livejournal.com 2006-12-16 04:57 am (UTC)(link)
This is the exact thing I'd change as well. It was the moment when I stopped liking Clark, when he weenied out and runned away like a coward.

I'd love to read your story, I hope you write it! Clark's responses alone are hysterically funny and apt.
treetracer: (praying for clex)

[personal profile] treetracer 2006-12-16 06:32 am (UTC)(link)
That is the cutest icon! *loves*

Yeah, that moment didn't do a whole lot for Clark's character, did it. And I haven't written anything in *ages*, but you know how bunnies never go away, they just nibble your ankles...

[identity profile] kantayra.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 06:47 am (UTC)(link)
Oooh, fun! :D

What is your goal?
I want Lex not to turn evil for a really fucking stupid (or impossibly vague and unbelievable) reason. If he has to be evil, at least it should not suck.

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?
I have miraculous, selective, memory-restoring powers. I would sneak into Lex's room the night after 'Memoria' and, after admiring the fine scenery (please, oh please, let him sleep naked!), would restore Lex's memories of the entire six weeks except I would leave out what, exactly, Clark's secret was. Lex would know that he had known Clark's secret and had stayed loyal and kept that secret, but that Clark had still left him to Lionel and in Belle Reve and had stopped the experiments at Summerholt to keep Lex from remembering, but he wouldn't know the actual details of what Clark's hiding from him.

What do you think the effect of your change will be?
Lex, hopefully, will be really fucking pissed off. Better still, he'll at least know that he was betrayed on so many different levels. I'm not sure if he'll confront Clark right off the bat, or he'll sit on the knowledge and let it fester. If he doesn't confront Clark (or Chloe), at least he'll be able to feed their guilt trips and get justifiably really pissed off whenever either of them suggests that he has mental problems because he was in Belle Reve. (WTF, Chloe?! You know better! *stabs her lots*) Either way, it doesn't matter. At least when Lex finally turns homicidal on Clark, it will be for a damn good reason. Also, since he'll remember that Lionel's taken a shine to poisoning his brandy, he probably won't fall for the same trick in the season finale. Which means we won't get the subplot where Lex has to replace his blood every umpteen hours which the writers conveniently forget after 4x01. o.O Anything that helps continuity can't be bad!

What might be the unintended consequences?
Well, if Lex does confront Clark, and Clark's not being a total jerk that day, it's possible that they'll have a good screamfest and eventually work things out. I left out Clark's actual secret to give Clark one last chance to redeem himself in case this scenario were to occur. :P (And, OK, also to give Clark a fighting chance if Lex decides it's death time then and there.) But, yeah, I'm not seeing a Clex reconciliation as a downfall.

A possible negative consequence is that Lionel would somehow find out that Lex remembers (although, given that Lex would then remember why Lionel put him through electroshock in the first place, I think Lex would be savvy enough to play his cards close to his chest). In this scenario, Lionel might try to kill Lex even more, or throw him back in Belle Reve, or any of a wide variety of dumbfoundingly evil plans Lionel is capable of devising. Which would be bad. I can only hope that Clark would save him this time. But at least this time Lex would have decent forewarning of what exactly Lionel is capable of.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 08:11 am (UTC)(link)
Ok, for some reason this made me laugh and laugh and laugh. I think probably because most people playing are trying to heal the rift, and you're just making it a better rift. ROFL. It's true that this is a much better reason for the rift than conflict over Lana!



[identity profile] kantayra.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 11:52 pm (UTC)(link)
What can I say? I'm a pragmatist. :P Plus, Clark and Lex make fine, fine enemies. And enemies who want to fuck are sexy!

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 12:57 am (UTC)(link)
I admire you for embracing the enmity. I've been wanting Lex to go bad for real for a while, but now that he is I'm finding it less satisfying than I thought. (Though I agree about sexual tension among enemies, in general--but I think Clark and Lex need to have more actual scenes together so we can see that!)

[identity profile] latxcvi.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 03:25 pm (UTC)(link)
I love this as the scenario for the Rift. I think it's organic and plausible and does something the show seems afraid to: make understandble Clark's and Lex's positions in terms of the dissolution of the friendship.

[identity profile] jakrar.livejournal.com 2006-12-15 02:16 pm (UTC)(link)
I love this plan!

[identity profile] acampbell.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 02:20 pm (UTC)(link)
What is your goal?

To begin the Lexana at the end of S3 instead of at the end of S5. To omit Jason Teague and the witch/stone storyline completely. And, while I’m hanging around in S3, to get rid of the character of Adam Knight, because I don’t think he added anything of interest and substance to the show, either (except calling Lana on some of her flaws—what a breath of fresh air that was!) Since I'm improving a relationship scenario, I hope that only counts as one change overall.

The Lexana relationship was set up perfectly in "Covenant" at the airport when Lana left for Paris, with Lex indicating his intention to visit her there, and there had been scenes of them interacting for at least several episodes previously. Their friendship was on solid ground, at that point, and ripe for development into something more.

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?

I guess go back leave Parisian travel brochures around to convince Lex to make good on his offer of going to Paris. He may have done this at some point in canon, but if so, it was never shown. If Lana was reluctant, I’d hope she'd remember how much Lex has done for her, how much they have in common, and what a good friend he’s been. And what a natural relationship at that point in time, both of them having been dumped by Clark. I guess Lex would have to tell her about this.

What do you think the effect of your change will be?

It would have given us a much better storyline for S4 and beyond. Being that Clark broke up with Lana (for the first time) at the beginning of S3, if the Lexana didn’t begin until the very end of the season, it would have had much less the feel of beginning because Lana was rebounding from Clark. Getting rid of Lana’s other two boyfriends and giving her something to do (charity work, investigations, art or astronomy study) would get her focus off herself, and make her seem less reliant on constantly needing a guy to prop her up, helping grow into her own independence. And, when we got the touted “new and improved” Lana at the beginning of S4, she would have been with Lex, an established character, rather than a throwaway character who only lasted one season. When she chose Lex, it would have been an informed choice.

In S4, Lex and Lana, having grown close in Paris, would come back to Smallville, together, continuing the relationship begun in Paris (or, really, at the airport the day she left). It would have been an effective triangle situation that could have been extended throughout the season, impacting both their relationships with Clark as the three of them (perhaps) worked their way back to a tenuous friendship, but with the Lex-Lana relationship between them. Lex could still have been searching for the stones, and keeping Chloe safe, and putting his consuming need to know before his affair with Lana, but the whole Isobel Thoreaux plot could have been deep-sixed. They could even have woven the Clana back in to some extent later in the season if they really had to, but it would have been more layered and angsty by that point, as it would have grown organically through the season by Lana perhaps becoming slowly aware of Lex’s true nature, and again of her attraction to Clark..

What might be the unintended consequences?

Well, it would have accelerated the Lex/Clark/Lana scenario we now have, and necessitated focus on something else by now—something more meaningful, like the ultimate rift between Lex and Clark, to which the situation with Lana might have contributed, but only moderately. I think it would have yielded us a much better structured and more focused and adult S4. But, since my concept is vague at best and I have no real notion how it would have played out, I’m not sure. Maybe someone else has ideas?

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 01:01 am (UTC)(link)
I was really hoping that since I couldn't comment on things right away, that other people would jump in and have conversations while I was gone. Oh well!

I can see where you see the Lexana in s4, but don't you think it would be a problem that Lana was still in high school, even if she was 18? I think that would create perception problems for Luthorcorp, so Lex would be unlikely to enter into the relationship then.

On the other hand, I agree this would have been a *much* more organic and interesting plot development for Lana than the whole Isabelle Theroux thing.

[identity profile] acampbell.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 01:32 am (UTC)(link)
Things have been kind of dead today. I imagine people will be discussing this post for a while, though! Much food for thought in the entry and in all the comments.

To be honest, it never occurred to me to worry about Lana being too young for Lex in S3! It no doubt should have. I guess since the actors are all in their early twenties and older than their TV counterparts, and I have a teenager and a young adult of my own, I rarely have an exact sense of how old they are supposed to be and don't get brought up short the way I would if they were really still in their teens.

[identity profile] latxcvi.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 03:58 pm (UTC)(link)
Here's another one (I like this game a lot):

What is your goal?

Clarks accepts his Kryptonian heritage sooner rather than later.

How will you accomplish this?

With my special KryptoNorwich powers, I would clarify Jor-El's message in Rosetta. Instead of "Rule them with strength," the message would clearly read -- and thus be clearly translated by Clark as -- "Teach them by your example, Kal-El. Be a shining beacon of truth and all that is just and fair. If they are to follow your lead, then your lead should be as far above reproach as you can make it."

What do you think the effect of your change would be?

Clark becomes less self-loathing about/fearful of his alien heritage. I think a big part of Clark's resistance to Jor-El in Exodus is his terror that Jor-El's teachings/trainings/lessons for him were in Dictatorship 101. If Jor-El's message is more clearly about him wanting to show Clark how to be the best possible person he can be, I think Clark would have been more receptive when Jor-El said it was time for Clark to actively train. Jonathan and Martha might not have liked it, indeed, they might have actively resented it, but the important thing is that Clark would not have viewed his alien heritage as something he needed to flee/avoid/ignore.

If Clark is more receptive to being mentored by Jor-El, then he never tries to blow up Shippy Sue. If he doesn't blow up the ship, then Martha never loses the baby. There is, of course, the possibility that if Clark submitted to Jor-El's training sooner, he'd have been more Kal-El-esque during most of S3, but I also think that he would have recovered the elements quickly enough that if he got pulled back to his old life, the extreme alienness would eventually be tempered by the connections made because of his humanized upbringing.

If Clark/Kal-El collected the elements himself sooner rather than later, then Lana never stabs Genevieve Teague with one of them and the second meteor shower and the calling forth of Zod's spaceship doesn't happen. Alternatively, even if events transpire in such a way that we still get Zod's spaceship, Clark/Kal-El is a lot less likely to fall for Brainiac's shenanigans and in turn, Zod himself is never called forth. So. No possession of Lex by Zod, no Black Thursday.

What might some of the unintended consequences be?

I think the Shattered/Asylum arc might have gone down a lot differently, since Clark/Kal-El probably would have had the sense to force Darius into a police station to tell the truth re: the drugging of Lex. At a minimum, he'd probably have the full complement of his powers, so he would have used his super-hearing to get the goods on Lionel and Morgan Edge and probably would have ascertained that Dr. Foster was in on it, too.

Lionel would have gone to prison for killing his parents much sooner, I think, and because Clark/Kal-El had already collected the stones and created the Fortress of Solitude, Lionel wouldn't have been able to pull the body-switch; Lionel would have died in prison. Genevieve Teague might have still gotten him out, but I thought she did that because she knew of Lionel's own interest in the stones. I'm not sure the stone storyline plays out the same way in this scenario if Clark/Kal-El collected them all at the start of S3. Even so, it's the body-switching with Clark that healed Lionel's liver disease, so if the body-switching doesn't happen Lionel eventually dies because of his liver.

I'm not sure that Clark(/Kal-El) and Lana would have hooked up. I think it's more likely they would have stayed broken up and she and Lex might have drawn closer together earlier in S3. Lana probably would not have gone to Paris, since part of the reason she went was to get away from the relationship merry-go-round with Clark. If they've definitively not a couple for all of S3, though, she might not feel the impetus to leave. Jason never comes into the picture meaning, again, the likely possibility that the stone storyline plays out differently.

Basically, I think that if Clark accepts his heritage/Jor-El's mentorship at the end of S2, it has the potential to change a lot about the events of S3 and S4.

[identity profile] pepperjackcandy.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 12:06 am (UTC)(link)
I think that softening Jor-El's message would definitely go a long way towards making Clark better about the Kryptonian thing, but I don't believe that Jor-El was the cause of it.

Clark's other father was. JMHO.

[identity profile] latxcvi.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 04:17 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, I definitely think Jonathan (and Martha) failed to help the situation, but I could always understand to an extent the anxiety about it. For all intents and purposes, in every way that matters, they're Clark's parents. I think a lot of adoptive parents would feel great ambivalence and anxiety if, 15 or 16 years after the fact, their child's biological parent essentially showed up on the doorstep not only wanting to forge a connection, but more or less insisting that they be allowed to do so. It's not particularly a logical or rational reaction to be resistant to that initially, but I do think it's an understandable emotional reaction. So I could sympathize with some of the senior Kents' own resistance to Jor-El's rather heavy-handed attempts to forge a connection to Clark/Kal-El.

Where I think they fell down, though, was failing to overcome their own resistance, anxiety and ambivalence to help Clark determine whether he wanted to make that connection or not. At the end of the day, it should have been about what was best for Clark and since I think knowing and learning about his biological heritage -- in all of its respects, positive and negative -- was a good thing for him (and still is), I can't really countenance the way Jonathan, and to a lesser extent Martha, ultimately prioritized their anxiety and ambivalence ahead of what was best for Clark.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 01:11 am (UTC)(link)
Wow, I love this storyline. My only caveat is that we don't know how long Jor-El's training for Clark is supposed to be--wasn't it something like 12 years in the Christopher Reeve movies? That would obviously have consequences on the whole storyline, if Clark was gone that long.

But otherwise, I really love your re-translation, and the consequences of Clark not flipping out about his heritage.

If Clark is more receptive to being mentored by Jor-El, then he never tries to blow up Shippy Sue. If he doesn't blow up the ship, then Martha never loses the baby.

I confess this is my favorite bit of your AU, because the thought of Clark with a little brother or sister makes me melt. But it's not just that Martha doesn't lose the baby; Jonathan also doesn't get the heart condition that came from having to take on Kryptonian powers to bring Clark home after he ran away.

Thinking about it, though, I wonder if Clark would have embraced the training even if he wasn't afraid of Jor-El; hadn't he and Lana just hooked up again? I think part of his reluctance was that he didn't want to leave his life at that particular moment. You may need to add into Jor-El's message a particular save-the-world/potential threat to Clark's family emphasis to make sure he actually goes.

Lionel would have gone to prison for killing his parents much sooner, I think, and because Clark/Kal-El had already collected the stones and created the Fortress of Solitude, Lionel wouldn't have been able to pull the body-switch; Lionel would have died in prison. Genevieve Teague might have still gotten him out, but I thought she did that because she knew of Lionel's own interest in the stones. I'm not sure the stone storyline plays out the same way in this scenario if Clark/Kal-El collected them all at the start of S3. Even so, it's the body-switching with Clark that healed Lionel's liver disease, so if the body-switching doesn't happen Lionel eventually dies because of his liver.

And that means that *however* dark Lex still ends up, in this scenario, at least he won't end up committing patricide!

What do you think the effect of this scenario would be on Clark and Lex's relationship, though? Would Clark/Kal-El be more suspicious of Lex, and create the rift earlier?

[identity profile] latxcvi.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 04:54 pm (UTC)(link)
My only caveat is that we don't know how long Jor-El's training for Clark is supposed to be--wasn't it something like 12 years in the Christopher Reeve movies?

Good point, but if we go by Covenant/Crusade, it does appear that Jor-El could take care of his business in the space of approximately three months. I see no good reason why that can't be the actual length of the training since Jor-El doesn't know he's on a TV show with a roughly three-month hiatus. He clearly sent Kal-El back when he thought Kal-El was ready. Although I suppose it could be argued that wasn't the full training but was, instead, just the training Kal-El needed to collect the stones. But for the purposes of my AU, let's say the training can be done in three to six months.

But it's not just that Martha doesn't lose the baby; Jonathan also doesn't get the heart condition that came from having to take on Kryptonian powers to bring Clark home after he ran away.

I hadn't thought of that effect, but you're absolutely right. Clark put on the red K ring and ran away because he'd hurt Martha; Jon made that deal with Jor-El to bring him back because he was out there wreaking havoc. If Clark never hurts Martha, there's no reason to run away and no reason for Jon to make that deal with Jor-El.

I wonder if Clark would have embraced the training even if he wasn't afraid of Jor-El; hadn't he and Lana just hooked up again? I think part of his reluctance was that he didn't want to leave his life at that particular moment. You may need to add into Jor-El's message a particular save-the-world/potential threat to Clark's family emphasis to make sure he actually goes.

True. I think it was a mistake on Jor-El's part to tell Clark he didn't need his human connections any more, so I do think Jor-El's invitation to training message would need to finesse that part of things. Acknowledge their importance to Clark but impress upon him that what lies ahead is bigger than him or his immediate/inner circle.

What do you think the effect of this scenario would be on Clark and Lex's relationship, though? Would Clark/Kal-El be more suspicious of Lex, and create the rift earlier?

I'm not sure. One thing I will give Jor-El is that he never once fell into that annoying trap of warning Clark against Lex for no good reason (it's one thing if people actually have knowledge of bad shit Lex has done, but the show's had an irritating habit over the seasons of using guest characters as a Greek Chorus possessed of meta-textual foreknowledge in a way that sometimes set my teeth on edge: don't tell me Lex is evil and people should be wary of him because that's how the story ends; show it to me based on stuff he's doing in the current timeline). I suspect that a more biological heritage-influenced Clark would still have been suspicious of Lex when Lex acted suspiciously, but might have tempered it in a more mature way than Clark did during the back half of S3 and most of S4. Alternatively, he might have tried to dialogue more with Lex than canon!Clark ever has over why Lex does things the way he does. He might have communicated with Lex better than canon!Clark did, but I don't think it necessarily would have forestalled the rift or sped it up. Of course, I think a biollogical heritage-influenced Clark would also have been smarter about dissembling with Lex/throwing Lex off the scent of Clark's specialness. That might have altered their dynamic, too.

[identity profile] pepperjackcandy.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 08:07 pm (UTC)(link)
What is your goal?

Keep Clark and Lex as friends.

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?

I'm going to talk to Pete's mom, who should be a lawyer by now, if not a judge. Since I'm much smarter in these games than I am IRL, I'd craft a persuasive argument that Lionel needs to be allowed to purchase the factory *and* that the Kents need help figuring out how to adopt Clark legally.

What do you think the effect of your change will be?

Hopefully, this will fix Jonathan's relationships with both Clark and Lex. Neither of them will be a constant reminder of how he "sold out," so when Lex comes to Smallville (note that I'm going to convince her to get them to sell the factory to Lionel in hopes that ), Jonathan will see that Lex needs real friends and a family, and be willing to be that for Lex.

What might be the unintended consequences?

Oh, all sorts of things. Jonathan and Martha might not get to adopt Clark after all. The Rosses might not sell the factory to Lionel, which would keep Lex from moving to Smallville.* Jonathan might find another reason to resent Clark. The Rosses might split up earlier and Mrs. Ross might take Pete away from Smallville, so that Pete and Clark would never become friends (not that that would be a big loss, imho).

*And if Lex never comes to SV, it could well be that he'll continue fighting his father's way of doing things, and the boys will become friends once Clark moves to Metropolis. Which would work for me, too.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 01:15 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, I think it would definitely help Clark and Lex's relationship if Jonathan had never been blackmailed by Lionel. Though I still think he might have been suspicious about "that rich city boy"--but I definitely like the idea of Jonathan seeing Lex differently.

[identity profile] pepperjackcandy.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 02:35 am (UTC)(link)
Maybe, but back in the early days of the fandom, there was a rash of Jonathan/Lionel fic, because it seemed so clear to so many of us that Jonathan mistrusted Lex for reasons beyond those he admitted to.

So at least I (and I'm pretty sure others) took Lineage to be basically the confession that he disliked Lex because Lex is a reminder of the deal he made with Lionel.

Without the deal, perhaps all he would've seen when he looked at Lex was the injured kid in the cornfield/hospital. He might even have had sympathy for Lex for being raised by a jerk like Lionel.
ext_6837: (sv5 clark protect by charmingjen)

[identity profile] valentinemichel.livejournal.com 2006-12-13 09:34 pm (UTC)(link)
SCENARIO #1

What is your goal?

To get Lana some psychological help.

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?

With the power of persuasion (yes!), I'd convince S1 Lana to get go into therapy. By admitting she's very psychologically damaged (because she'd do that in order to: 1.) convince Nell therapy (aka professional intervention)'s necessary; 2.) prove to Nell she admitting there's a problem is the first step), Lana becomes more symbolic of the damage of the meteor shower than that crappy magazine cover. Further, she'd actually suggest to Nell she should probably go to a facility for intensive sessions.

What do you think the effect of your change will be?

Dancing in the streets?

Removing Lana from Clark's orbit and recasting her as a "troubled teen" would remove the canon hold she has on Clark. Too bad I can't convince the staff at the facility to try electroshock on her pinkness.

What might be the unintended consequences?

I suppose Lana could *die* in treatment, but it's more likely she'd develop a spine and travel a bit, occasionally sending postcards to Pete.

Although, witnessing the "perfect" girl own her own problems could convince Clark he too needs therapy. He wouldn't be wrong.

Looking over the consequences, I have to say they're made entirely of *win*.



SCENARIO #2 (utterly motivated by the promise of S5 and yes, said scenario would involve *genuine character motivation*. Shocking, I know!):

What is your goal?

To make sure Lex remembers *everything* leading up to and including his time as Zod – which means he knows about Kryptonians – including Clark. Why? Because years of forgetting is more evil than Lex could ever dream of being.

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?

Lex gets a full Season 5-plus mental un-wipe.

What do you think the effect of your change will be?

Lex goes on an anti-alien tear. Every project he initiates is designed to learn about "Them" and protect "Us" - and potentially destroy Them. He doesn't see Clark as part of the solution: Clark's part of the problem. Lex doesn't run around talking about "invasions" and "aliens" – he's done his time in Belle Reve – but he's aware the reality is bigger than Smallville's mutant population. Continuing the work he started a year ago means Lex gets to be the hero of the story.

What might be the unintended consequences?

Lex could try to recruit Lana – and Lana could let the beans slip about Clark within earshot of the wrong person. The slip would lead to Clark running for his life.

Lex could decide experimenting on mutants isn't enough – and decide to go right to the source (aka Clark).

Clark might discover that Lex knows *everything* - and *freak out*.

Clark might discover that Lex knows *everything* - and decide spandex is the only option.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 01:37 am (UTC)(link)
I definitely agree that Lana getting counselling would be a good thing for her character, but I think one unintended consequence you're overlooking is the power of the pink: if Lana gets counselling, that probably means that counselling becomes trendy in SV, rather than Lana being stigmatized for it.

I'm confused as to the timeline of scenario 2: is Lex's anti-alien tear set in season 5 or 6? Because as far as I know, Lex already is the hero of his own story; he is being motivated by the justifiable fear of aliens, even given his lack of memory of precisely what happened when he was Zod.

Or do you mean he'd be the hero to the viewer? Or that you just want a more overt battle between between Lex and Clark? Or just the power balance shifted between them? ::is confused::
ext_6837: (supes in lex's face)

[identity profile] valentinemichel.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 02:52 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, I don't think she'd be stigmatized. Maybe whispered about if she checked herself in somewhere, but hey, it's a small town and those things happen. And absolutely no bad in having others decide to follow suit, although, honestly, I never saw *anyone* other than Tina jump on the Lana train. Lana has never initiated any movement or trend; she's too busy following to lead. So beyond Clark seeking counseling - which would *flip* his parents out and lead to the possibility of fights, Clark lying to them and sneaking behind their backs - I think Lana'd be on pretty much alone (especially, if we got her out of Smallville quickly after the Lex/Clark violent meet).

is Lex's anti-alien tear set in season 5 or 6?

Lex starts the hardcore anti-alien tear in Season 5. He'd continue it in Season 6.

Because as far as I know, Lex already is the hero of his own story; he is being motivated by the justifiable fear of aliens

I'm not convinced he fears the aliens. I'm not convinced he understands why he's driven to do what he's doing. Currently, I'm sure he sees himself as a good guy, but returning the memory of Zod, how he got to be inhabited, what he did while inhabited would give him motivation and *power* he doesn't have now. Snippets of information and "feelings" don't justify what he's doing. Having first-hand knowledge of what was done to him, how he felt with those powers, and how he feels now that they're gone? Motivation that anyone can understand.

Lex being the hero in what amounts to his own mind is a solo endeavor - meaning it could easily be crazy talking. I'd prefer Lex be brilliant, not psychopathic.

Or do you mean he'd be the hero to the viewer?

He'd have the potential to be seen as a hero to the viewer. *That* Lex, a man who does questionable things that are, in some measure *the right thing to do* for reasons *he understands absolutely*, would be intriguing. Right now, Lex has a "sense" and "suspicions." A smart man would be working from a base of *knowledge*. Not to mention Lex instantly becomes interesting and dangerous rather than dangerous and possibly unstable (as he seems currently) if he has total recall in this AU.

As for shifting the power relationship between that two, I guess you could call that an unintended consequence, particularly if Lex doesn't let on he knows the truth about Clark.

Clearer?

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-14 03:42 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, thank you--I understand your goal a lot better now.

[identity profile] jakrar.livejournal.com 2006-12-15 03:07 am (UTC)(link)
What is your goal?

To get Clark and Lex together as friends, allies and lovers -- ideally forever.

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?

I will use my mind-altering mutant powers on Helen Bryce, to cause her to kill Lionel instead of Lex. I will make sure, however, that she leaves behind enough evidence to make it obvious that not only did she cold-bloodedly murder the man, but she also accepted money from him and conspired with him against Lex before turning on Lionel.

What do you think the effect of your change will be?

Lex will be shocked and dismayed (perhaps more by the conspiracy against him than by Lionel's murder), and will divorce Helen and let her rot in prison. More importantly, Lex will be able to search for Clark when Clark puts on the red kryptonite ring and disappears. Lex will find Kal, and Kal will happily move into Lex's Metropolis penthouse and show off his powers and alien origins in order to lure Lex into bed. Lex will have the truth he's been searching for, and -- once he's somehow gotten the ring off Kal's finger -- he and Clark will forge a new and stronger and more honest alliance, both as friends and as lovers. Clark/Kal will avoid coming to Morgan Edge's attention, since he will be staying in Lex's penthouse rather than out pulling bank jobs. Lex will forever escape Lionel's influence and evil plans, and will have myriad reasons to stay good and law-abiding in order to keep peace with his significant other. The CLex will live happily ever after.


What might be the unintended consequences?

Jonathan and Martha (and perhaps even Clark's friends) may try to break our guys up, most likely by threatening to turn Lex in to the law for seducing a minor. And, since Jonathan won't have to borrow any superpowers from Jor-El, he's likely to live a very long life. (Drat!) Clark might keep the scar Jor-El gave him. Aside from that, I'm not sure if there are any negatives here, though I'm probably overlooking something. Or many somethings.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-15 06:03 am (UTC)(link)
That's an interesting one. The only problem, I think, is that Jor-El seemed to be able to control Clark somehow through the scar--especially when he was about to have sex! That might put a little crimp in the Clex action, unless you figure out another way to get Jor-El to leave Clark alone.

[identity profile] jakrar.livejournal.com 2006-12-15 02:14 pm (UTC)(link)
Maybe, in interfering with Kal's sexual exploits, Jor-El was simply trying to keep Kal from 'mating' with unworthy partners. Given Jor-El's goal of Kal-El ruling the world, Lex Luthor (who was brought up with much the same goal in mind) would surely be seen as a worthy and useful mate, so Jor-El might not WANT to interfere. On the other hand, once Kal has told Lex everything, Lex might be able to come up with a way to deal with Jor-El, allowing himself and Clark the freedom to live their lives their own way (more or less). Or maybe I'm just being ridiculously optimistic....
ext_9839: Yuko (woo)

Repost for html

[identity profile] lukita.livejournal.com 2006-12-15 05:35 pm (UTC)(link)
What is your goal?

Mess with the entire SV canon.

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?

Instead of a reporter, Chloe found her calling writing music.

What do you think the effect of your change will be?

While Chloe might still be curious about the weird things going on in Smallville, the Wall of Weird would be the first to go (I hate that thing) since she would be too busy writing music or actually practice playing some sort of instrument. Clark probably won't write for the Torch if he, Chloe and Pete are friends (they might start a band!AU). Chloe would stopped putting herself in danger searching for her next story and Clark won't have to save her all the time. Lionel would never ask her to find out Clarks's secret, she wouldn't even bleep on his radar. In short, a lot of bad things that happend in SV is Chloe's fault.

What might be the unintended consequences?

A lot of characters are going to die because Chloe won't be all knowing with the answers and hacking. Oops. I'll totally list episodes/names except I can't remember what happened in most of them. I'm sure Lana's name is on that list.

Re: Repost for html

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-16 01:55 am (UTC)(link)
Well, Smallville would certainly have been very different if Chloe had spent all her time in a band instead of at the Torch!

[identity profile] horticulturist.livejournal.com 2006-12-15 09:01 pm (UTC)(link)
I have to take a whack at this:

Goal: Prevent Lex from turning evil while preserving his friendship with Clark.

How to achieve: Use the meteor-mutant's powers from Static to imprison evil Lex from Onyx before he even wakes up in the lab.

Effects: Since no one will have any idea that Lex is missing, since good Lex will still be around, no one will ever become aware of evil Lex' existence. Instead, they will simply start noticing that Lex had become unambiguously good. Also, without the fencing match with evil Lex, Lionel will remain unambiguously reformed.

Possible unintended consequences: Without his evil side, all of Lex' future actions will be radically different. This might significantly alter events in Commencement, wherein good Lex will not kidnap Chloe, which might impact whether Chloe will end up in the caves and then at the fortress with Clark. Also, who knows how the stones plot might have ultimately resolved itself? At a bare minimum, the events of Mortal would not have occurred, radically altering all the events of season five. The real consequence, though, would be a moral consequence. We wouldn't really be saving Lex' soul here; we'd just be cutting out the evil part and imprisoning it.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-16 02:09 am (UTC)(link)
This is an interesting scenario. I agree that it would radically change season 5; in addition to the unintended consequences you pointed out, I wonder if unambiguously good Lex would be effective in standing up against his father?

I also wonder if, in the long run, good Lex could still exist without evil Lex? Depending on how the splitting happened, they may need each other biologically somehow (I've certainly read some post-Onyx stories that hypothesized that, anyway).

Your scenario also poses interesting philosophical questions. Would unambiguously good Lex be able to survive and thrive in the world? How much do we need our aggressive/selfish interests to succeed in life? I am reminded of that classic Star Trek episode where Jim Kirk got split in half, and his good half was completely ineffectual at making decisions. I also vaguely remember a story in which some medieval Jewish rabbi asks God to get rid of the yetzer hara--the evil impulse--but as a consequence no one did any work, or had children, or basically accomplished anything in life, because, as it turned out, that impulse was responsible not only for aggression and hatred, but also also creativity and drive.

[identity profile] horticulturist.livejournal.com 2006-12-16 11:53 pm (UTC)(link)
"Were it not for the Evil Inclination, nobody would build a house, take a wife and beget children" said Nehemiah ben Rav Shmuel ben Nachman in Qoheleth Rabba 3:15; in Breishit Rabba 9:7, the same line is attributed to Rav Nahman ben Shmuel ben Nahman, but it is either way a salient point. But on the other hand, it is also said, in Masekhet Sukkah 52, that "In the time to come the Holy One, blessed be He, will bring the Evil Inclination and slay it in the presence of the righteous and the wicked," and it is further said, in Bava Batra 17a, that "three there were over whom the evil inclination had no dominion: Avraham, Yitzhak, and Ya'aqov," so it would seem that it might be possible to survive without the evil inclination.

To bring our use of proof-texts back to Smallville itself, it did seem to me, watching Onyx, that good Lex was quite ambitious, but his ambition led him to want to do good things. He wanted to help his father with his charitable foundation, and he told Clark that his goal with his experiments was to increase farm yields, etc. It also seems to me that good Lex wouldn't need to stand up to his father, because, without the fencing match with evil Lex, Lionel would also have stayed good; perhaps good Lex and good Lionel would have reinforced each other over time.

As for good Lex and evil Lex needing each other biologically, the only reference to that in the show itself was evil Lex' stated concern about what would happen to him if good Lex died, a concern which good Lex did not seem to reciprocate. But that's why I didn't want to kill evil Lex, but just imprison him.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-17 02:54 am (UTC)(link)
Thanks for tracking down that quotation; my google fu was not very good yesterday, and I gave up after a page or so, but it was driving me crazy.

Are you going to keep evil Lex imprisoned forever? Because if he gets out, it wouldn't be pretty. I like the idea that Lionel would stay good without evil Lex to goad him back to his old ways, but I still at least half-believe he was faking his transformation, so I am torn. (I really really would love both Lionel and Lex to stay good, but I guess I have no faith it would work out in the long run.)

[identity profile] mobiusklein.livejournal.com 2006-12-15 10:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Make sure Clark and his ship and the meteors never arrive on Earth (it's interesting to think about)

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?

The use of long-range gravity or telekinesis to push them off course.

What do you think the effect of your change will be?

No Superman, no meteor shower I or II, no evil!Lex, Lana’s pancakes stick around and raise a normal girl, Bo & Martha are childless, no FOTWs.

Clark may or may not survive being sent elsewhere.

What might be the unintended consequences?

Well, Earth is screwed if there’s an enormous catastrophe like alien invasion or what not. The Kents might divorce. Ma Kent might go back to Metropolis. Lana will continue to be boring. Chloe might stay in Metropolis. Pete and Lana might’ve hooked up. SV would be a whole lot more populated.

Lois would just have continued being aimless for quite a while. Maybe she would’ve gone into the army to prove herself that way. I wouldn’t have minded her development if she had turned into a wartime correspondent that way.

Not sure how it would affect Justice League.

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-16 02:12 am (UTC)(link)
Wow, that's a big what if. I think you also forgot that Lex still has asthma and no longer has miraculous healing powers, so he may end up killing himself accidentally in one of his youthful escapades. I wonder if the Rosses would have sold the factory to Luthorcorp?

I doubt Martha and Jonathan would divorce--more likely they would have just adopted kids.

[identity profile] mobiusklein.livejournal.com 2006-12-17 06:24 am (UTC)(link)
I think that without being treated as a freak by his own father at least on that count, he would be less likely to act out as much as he did. Also without his father's bad attitude toward Lex because of the storm, Lillian may not have killed Julian or Lionel might have actually believed Lex when he said it was an accident. Also I think being more normal looking might have cut down on the constant bullying.

As for adoption, considering that Bo was constantly in financial trouble even with an unpaid slave on staff aka Clark, I don't think that they could afford the adoption process or that a court wouldn't bug them about why they were constantly on the verge of bankruptcy.

Kill Lionel, Of Course!

[identity profile] trienne-hovus.livejournal.com 2006-12-16 07:10 am (UTC)(link)
What is your goal?
Prevent Lex's descent.

What are you going to do to accomplish it, given the constraints on your powers?
This is easy. I do something I've wanted to do since Tempest: use my powers to (gently!) knock Lex out when the bookcase falls on him. He's unconscious just long enough for the beam to fall down and crush Lionel to death.

What do you think the effect of your change will be?
Lionel is dead! That can't be a bad thing.

More detailed answer: Lex was working on becoming a benevolent ruler in Smallville, by saving the crap factory. He had reached a level of acceptance in the town. Lionel's coming to stay at the mansion short-circuited all that: put Lex in yet another no-win situation of trying to win his father's love, took away his autonomy, exposed him to Lionel's treachery and sociopathic influence 24/7. Without Lionel, there's no competition for the caves (and Clark doesn't wind up destroying the ship because there's no gK key made to destroy it with); no hostage situation in LuthorCorp Tower; no Belle Reeve; no body switcheroo; no Teague intrigue; no Good Lex/Evil Lex split... etc. upon etc. Oh, and either he never finds out that Lucas exists, or (if Lionel's will left instructions for contacting Lucas) then they get to know each other without Lionel setting them against one another.

What might be the unintended consequences?
Lex might feel so guilty that he couldn't save Lionel that he leaves Smallville. Depending on how soon he does that, he might not be there to kill Nixon when Nixon is about to kill Jonathan and expose Clark - and how Lex deals with that (Jonathan's death, Clark's exposure, himself blamed for both) opens up a big ol' can of worms.

Or: Lex doesn't leave Smallville, does kill Nixon... but he also inherits LuthorCorp, and in the course of "preserving the Luthor Empire," not to mention acting unrestrainedly on his curiosity and ambition, loses his already-fragile sense of ethics and winds up approving much the same gK and genetic experiments that Lionel had in mind. Which brings him into conflict with Clark anyway.

But, see, even if that does happen, it would be Lex making his own decisions, his own moral choices, while in his right mind, memory intact. The way things have played out in SV, Lex has become Lionel's, and Destiny's, puppet: the victim of one diabolical deux et machina after another. I don't and never will "buy" SV's Lex as an evil villain, because of the way SV has jerked him around.

Re: Kill Lionel, Of Course!

[identity profile] norwich36.livejournal.com 2006-12-17 06:06 pm (UTC)(link)
You've made a good case for killing Lionel, and I think the timing is excellent. I don't think your projected unintended consequence about Lex not handling Nixon would come to pass, either, because if Lex is feeling guilty about not saving his dad, the first person he'd go to at that point is Clark, so he'd still find out about the Jonathan situation and handle it, even if he then ended up leaving Smallville.

Though I think I have to disagree about Lex as destiny's puppet. Yes, he has had a hell of a lot of bad stuff happen to him, and yes, Lionel is evil and has been pushing Lex in a particular direction for a long time. On the other hand, lots of other characters on the show have had lots of bad stuff happen to them and have not chosen, for example, to imprison and experiment on meteor mutants. I love Lex, and I deeply regret that stuff that has happened in his life that has contributed to his descent, but he still has and is making his own choices.

Re: Kill Lionel, Of Course!

[identity profile] trienne-hovus.livejournal.com 2006-12-17 11:35 pm (UTC)(link)
I didn't mean only that Lex had bad stuff happen to him, and therefore should be excused from the choices he makes. I meant that the particular kind of bad stuff that happens to him would just about destroy anyone's ability to make moral choices.

Lex hasn't "merely" been abused. He's had his brain zapped, his memory wiped out more than once, his personality distintegrated repeatedly - and that's on top of the 'normal' SV stuff like making vital life decisions while under the influence of meteor rock mutations.

IMO, that goes to the very heart of how we acquire a sense of morality and make moral decisions. We make decisions based on what we know of how the universe operates and how people react. We rely on a universe where cause-and-effect have some logical consistency, where the rules - of physics, of statutes, of normal human conduct - aren't suspended and upended on a regular basis. We also rely on being able to trust our own memories, our own sanity, our own autonomy and selfhood. Without that reliance, that consistency, I don't believe we can make moral decisions.

For Lex, it's like living in a Bizarro Universe, where no matter what he does, no matter how good his intentions, no matter how carefully he plans and executes an action... he's going to fail. Not due to his own merits, or the lack of them, but because Fate, or Destiny, has decreed that he will fail.

TPTB gave us a Lex whose soul was on the razor's edge anyway: his essential decency at war with his ambition and curiosity; his essential kindness and hunger for love/acceptance at war with the Luthor Family legacy of abuse and treachery. They really could have developed the Iconic Evil Lex from that - a Faustian Lex, if you like; someone who lost the battle for his own soul. But he would have been someone who had a chance to win that battle. Instead, they gave us a Lex who never had a chance.

Re: Kill Lionel, Of Course!

[identity profile] isilweth.livejournal.com 2006-12-18 09:14 am (UTC)(link)
I think it's true in many ways that Lex never had a chance, but I think that can be said of all the characters. One of the show's overriding themes is "Destiny vs. Free Will". All the characters have been put into situations where their selfhood determines their destiny, despite their best efforts.

Lana tries to leave Smallville, but her need for 'having' and being 'had' brings her into a relationship with Lex. He caters to her inner princess and she can't help but stay, trapping herself even though it's the last thing she wanted.

Lois tries to deny her interest in journalism, but a barn door falls out of the sky right behind her. She could ignore it, but her character compells her to investigate further and warn others of the mysterious dangers of freak weather.

Clark, of course, tries to fight embracing his heritage. Every time he tries to ignor it or make it go away, it ends in disaster. He could continue to chose to fight it, but he doesn't because of his own set of values. He can't continue to put the world in danger.

I respectfully submit that despite all that has happened to him, Lex still has a very strong sense of self. He knows who he is and he knows what he's capable of - it used to scare him, and now it doesn't. He's made the choices along the way to get to that place. He chose to sabatoge genuine relationships for contrivances and manipulations. He chose to torture A.C. and Victor. He chose to examine the results of Duncan's testing. He chose to kill Nixon and Amanda. He chose to create and maintain Level 33.1 for two years now. His situation didn't push him into those choices - his character did.

Re: Kill Lionel, Of Course!

[identity profile] jakrar.livejournal.com 2006-12-19 03:43 am (UTC)(link)
Just poking my head up to quibble over a few points. I'm not sure Lex temporarily denying A.C. water constitutes torture so much as it does understandable caution; Lex clearly stated his suspicions that A.C. would be able to escape if he were to get water (which was, in fact, later proven true). Yes, Lex did taunt the guy a little, but not only had A.C. been insulting to Lex first, but A.C. was also an eco-terrorist out to destroy millions of dollars' worth of equipment that rightfully belonged to Lex and his company; I can't really see that Lex was all that terribly wrong to lock him up, if only as a prelude to calling in the authorities. And Lex did NOT torture Victor -- he saved Victor's life in the only way it was possible to save it. True, he forcibly kept Victor from throwing that life away, but so would the U.S. legal system have done, if it had had the chance; I personally do believe in the right to die, but suicide is currently illegal in almost every state. I do not see examining the results of Duncan's treatments as evil; knowledge is never inherently evil, although the misuse of that knowledge can be. The only Amanda I can think of committed suicide, which was not remotely Lex's fault. And Lex did not sabotage his relationship with Clark (if that's the one you're thinking of); Clark THREW THEIR RELATIONSHIP AWAY with his myriad lies and betrayals.

quibbles are fun :-)

[identity profile] isilweth.livejournal.com 2006-12-19 10:05 am (UTC)(link)
Hee! Quibble away. I have to admit I often find it very hard to see Lex's POV. I really appreciate hearing your well articulated perspective. I do have a few quibbles with your quibbles, though. ;-)

I'm not sure Lex temporarily denying A.C. water constitutes torture so much as it does understandable caution ... I can't really see that Lex was all that terribly wrong to lock him up, if only as a prelude to calling in the authorities.

It's true that Lex was proven correct wrt his suspicions that A.C. could escape if given water. It's also true that Lex stated being called 'a tool' as motivation for his taunting A.C. I could concede your point of A.C.'s attempting to destroy Lex's property, however, I don't believe Lex had any intention of calling in the authorities. First, the best opportunity for calling in law enforcement would have been when A.C. was first hit with the dart at the lake and rendered unconcious. Second, the first thing we see once Lex has A.C. in his lab is a doctor withdrawing A.C.'s blood. At this point in the show, Lex had an already established history of incarcerating meta-humans against their will for the purpose of experimentation (Molly, Mxyzptlk, the goons in "Mortal"). Third, Lex's line of questioning once he had A.C. dehydrated and restrained in his lab had nothing to do with eco-terrorism. He specifically witheld a biological need to the point of causing pain and suffering with the goal of getting A.C. to reveal information (How does he swim so fast? Why does he need water so much?).

Lex did NOT torture Victor -- he saved Victor's life in the only way it was possible to save it ... he forcibly kept Victor from throwing that life away, but so would the U.S. legal system have done, if it had had the chance

Actually, Victor was already dead. Lex didn't notify the authorities that he had a 'dead' alive person in his custody. In fact, he hid that from them as a means to forcibly experiment on Victor. Once again he caused a person physical/psychological/emotional pain and suffering in pursuit of information.

I do not see examining the results of Duncan's treatments as evil; knowledge is never inherently evil

Good point. I suppose, one could even argue that he wanted to give Duncan's life meaning. I included it as a knee-jerk, I think. That moment in "Reunion" was spine-tingling creepy for me because it brought me to Lex's past actions wrt experimenting on people and although he hasn't used (to our knowledge) the information for ill purposes yet, it stands to reason that he will. But, you're right, he can't be held accountable for something he's likely to do, but hasn't yet done.

The only Amanda I can think of committed suicide

Doh! *smacks forehead* Yep, you're right. I was thinking of Amanda's fiance, Jude. Since "Zero" is ambiguous as to who exactly killed Jude, I probably shouldn't have used this as an example. (Especially since I typed the wrong victim!) I think Lex killed him, though.

Lex did not sabotage his relationship with Clark (if that's the one you're thinking of); Clark THREW THEIR RELATIONSHIP AWAY with his myriad lies and betrayals.

Actually, I was thinking of Lana. She could've genuinely loved him for himself if he hadn't contrived to (figuratively) capture her and then continued to manipulate her once he had. Now that you mention it, I think this does apply somewhat to Clark, too - with the advice about Lana, buying the farm, the CoCK, the football team sponsorship, and the "Mortal" set-up being cases in point. You obviously feel very strongly with the all caps, so I just want you to know that I don't mean to offend you with my perspective - it's just my perspective. I think both Clark and Lex are culpable for the state of their relationship. They've both been active participants in its downfall.

Re: quibbles are fun :-)

[identity profile] jakrar.livejournal.com 2006-12-20 01:58 am (UTC)(link)
Yes, quibbles can be fun. The website won't let me post my response all in one because it's too long. (I can be talkative when I'm in the mood!) So this is one of two (or three, or whatever):

Lex may or may not have intended, at some point, to call in the authorities once he had A.C. in custody. (One could argue that Lex was better equipped to contain a metahuman criminal than the average prison facility, and thus was behaving in a reasonable and pragmatic way by imprisoning A.C. himself. And, as far as Lex tending to imprison metahumans, the only ones I can specifically recall him holding in custody were individuals who were clearly a danger to others -- or, in Victor's case, to himself -- so you could make a case for Lex simply doing what the authorities had so far failed to do in order to protect the public.) In any case, naturally Lex was going to get all the information he could out of A.C. while he had him; Lex's insatiable curiosity is one of his most notable traits (and not necessarily a bad one), and he had more than ample reason to be curious in this case. As for withholding water to the point of causing A.C. pain and suffering, it was my impression (and probably Lex's) that A.C. was greatly exaggerating his discomfort in order to trick Lex into doing something that would enable A.C. to escape, so I still have trouble seeing Lex's actions there as torture rather than as simple and reasonable precaution.

Yes, Lex and his people were covertly experimenting on Victor, but it was only that experimentation that saved Victor's life, and -- since, by the end of the episode, Victor had clearly decided that he wanted to live -- I don't think you can really blame Lex for that. Saving lives is not necessarily evil. Lex, or his scientist, did keep Victor contained, for a time, against his will, but that was apparently necessary to keep Victor from ending his life while still highly emotional due to the trauma of his family's deaths; certainly, he kept protesting that he did not want to live. And while I would probably have respected Victor's decision and allowed him to end his own life, the authorities certainly would not have, so you can't entirely fault Lex for not allowing it, either.

Re: quibbles are fun :-)

[identity profile] jakrar.livejournal.com 2006-12-20 01:59 am (UTC)(link)
This is the second part of my (obviously overlong) response:

We don't truly know who killed Jude, and probably never will. I tend to believe Lex when he said Amanda shot the man, but it is entirely possible that Lex himself pulled the trigger. Either way, I saw the shooting as something done in defense of innocent lives: Jude had already attacked Lex with a knife while Lex was unarmed and offering no physical threat to Jude whatsoever, and Jude seemed about to attack Lex again when he was shot. Consequently, I don't consider that shooting an immoral or unethical act, no matter who was actually responsible. (True, Lex set up the initial situation to let Amanda find out Jude was cheating on her, but -- in all honesty -- she did have a right to know that. Jude turning violent was his own choice; it was not something Lex forced on him.)

Admittedly, Lex does manipulate people; he learned that under Lionel's tutelage while growing up, and the vast majority of people he's known have done their best to use Lex to their own advantage, so I cannot entirely fault Lex for tending to see the world as a case of 'use or be used.' Despite this, when Lex and Clark first met, Lex was (for the most part) surprisingly honest and open with Clark...until it became so clear that Clark was lying to him that Lex turned more wary and, of course, more curious. Again, I can't really blame Lex for that.

Finally, you mentioned the "Mortal" setup. There was no proof whatsoever that Lex deliberately set that situation up. Yes, he was at Belle Reve that day; Lionel had just been admitted as a patient, and Lex wanted to personally check on his father's condition and to personally discuss Lionel's treatment with his doctor. And, yes, Lex bumped into one of the metahumans in the hall -- but I can personally attest to having bumped into any number of people in my life, without ever having been involved in a criminal conspiracy with any of them. The metahuman may well have bumped into Lex on purpose in order to free himself from his manacles, but there's no reason to think Lex had anything to do with that beyond happening to be the first person the guy was able to bump into. Lex had security at the Luthorcorp plant, which is only natural, and he had some of the cameras on different power sources, which is a perfectly understandable precaution. When he arrived back in town and was told there'd been a security breach, he naturally checked the video footage on the working cameras...and was surprised to see Clark and Chloe breaking in, and further surprised to see Clark injured when Lex had good reason to suspect Clark was a lot harder to hurt than that. Clark and Chloe jumped to the conclusion that Lex had set the whole hostage situation up, just as they have jumped to many similar conclusions of Lex's guilt in situations where we, the audience, know for a fact that Lex was perfectly innocent. To me, this looks like just another case of Clark wrongly accusing Lex, and physically assaulting him into the bargain. I credit Lex with great restraint that he waited so long to use force to defend himself, and that he didn't report Clark to the police afterwards. (Not that he ever has, no matter how much Clark has deserved it.)

And, no, I wasn't offended by any of your comments. I hope you're not offended by any of mine.

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